Martin Karopkin"Fundamentally it's wrong to ignore an event like this.
An event of this magnitude needs
to be pursued as long as it can."
— Martin Karopkin
An event of this magnitude needs
to be pursued as long as it can."
— Martin Karopkin
Nearly thirty years after Cambodia’s genocide, those responsible may finally be tried, if they’re not already dead or dying.
By Kevin Sites,
Tue Jul 18 2006
http://hotzone.yahoo.com
PHNOM PENH, Cambodia - When the Khmer Rouge came to power in Cambodia in 1975, their leader, Pol Pot, proclaimed that it was "Year Zero" in the newly-renamed Democratic Republic of Kampuchea and that the society would not only be transformed from urban to rural, but recreated as a utopian agricultural paradise.
When the experiment was over, as many as two million people were dead, murdered in a vast wave of violence that turned the entire nation into a giant killing field.
The genocide finally ended after forces from neighboring Vietnam overthrew the regime in 1979. But not a single Khmer Rouge leader has seen the inside of a courtroom for the crimes committed against humanity.
Finally, almost 30 years later, the government of Cambodia, working with the United Nations, is establishing an international tribunal to prosecute major figures from the Khmer Rouge establishment — ones that haven't already died, like Pol Pot in 1998, or others too sick to stand trial.
Martin Karopkin, a trial commissioner for the New York City Police Department, applied for a place on the tribunal and was selected as a reserve judge. The main contingent in the tribunal will be Cambodian jurists but there are also judges from the Netherlands, France, Poland, Australia, Japan and other nations. Karopkin is the only American.
He was in Phnom Penh in early July for the first meeting of the tribunal. I talked with him at his hotel about the future proceedings and whether justice will finally be served. Just days after the interview, reports emerged that Ta Mok, an army chief in the Pol Pot regime known as "The Butcher" and one of the two top Khmer Rouge leaders in custody, is in a coma and could die at any moment.
KEVIN SITES: With so much time gone by and so many of the former Khmer Rouge leaders dead, like Pol Pot, and others sick and dying, who will actually be prosecuted, and how?
MARTIN KAROPKIN: None of the specifics have been brought up yet on who will be tried. Investigating judges will sift through the evidence and help make those decisions but the mandate is to find those that are most responsible. The tribunal needs to go after everyone at all levels.
The court is a historic event and since it's been long delayed it will take a lot of effort to provide the proper ajudication. But considering the amount of time that's gone by, this court can also help establish something very significant: a formal historical record (of the genocide).
There have been lengthy negotiations between the Cambodian government and United Nations, which will help ensure that a sense of fairness and international standards of law are applied.
SITES: What kind of timeline are we looking at?
KAROPKIN: Judges will be returning to their own countries after this initial meeting and the thing won't commence for at least six months. But we're talking about a three-year timetable for all the trials and appeals, which many of us feel is very optimistic.
SITES: Where is the process right now?
KAROPKIN: We're focusing on how to function, on how to go forward. The biggest problem we face is the fact that almost 30 years have passed, and we all understand that 30-year delay will impact every aspect, including those that would've been tried that have already died and those that are very ill.
SITES: Cambodia seems like it's moved on in many ways. Why is it so important to pursue this?
KAROPKIN: Fundamentally it's wrong to ignore an event like this. An event of this magnitude needs to be pursued as long as it can.
On a personal level I hope it will bring a sense of closure to all involved. The key issue here is that this is being addressed in some fashion. To do nothing, to ignore it, is not adequate.
SITES: Are there other pressing reasons to conduct this tribunal?
KAROPKIN: Unfortunately we live in a time when there have been some shocking genocides and the world needs a way to respond to it. Jurisprudence is one response to meet this unfortunate need. And by addressing it, it may also act as a check against future genocides, that those who perpetrate these kind of things will have a day of reckoning.
SITES: But these tribunals are after the fact. Why, in your view, is the international community so slow to come to grips with these crimes both in preventing them and then in helping to pursue justice once they've happened?
KAROPKIN: I think as human beings, most of us are simply puzzled that this kind of thing has occurred. I think there's a tendency to try and avoid it because it's painful and hard to appreciate.
We'd like to believe it's not a part of the human condition, but that's an unfortunate euphoric denial. We do need to move to the place where we're not having these kind of discussions. These tribunals do focus our attention on what happened but they also come after the fact. That attention has to come before they're allowed to happen.
SITES: The U.N. doesn't have the best record as far as recent genocides are concerned with Rwanda and now Darfur. Why should they be trusted to handle justice on this one?
KAROPKIN: I believe the U.N. is the last best hope for man. It offers an opportunity for people all over the world to speak and address each other. Like humans, there are good parts to the U.N. and parts that are flawed. We need to work hard to eliminate the flaws but we need to also recognize that the U.N. reflects the best of our aspirations.
SITES: Do you hope your participation will somehow serve to inform Americans more about what happened in Cambodia?
KAROPKIN: My mission is to ensure as best I can that the trials go forward and are conducted in a professional way to the highest legal standards, human rights standards. Anything else that flows from that is just extra. For judges it's about providing justice, it's not about being on the commission.
SITES: What's your take on how the Cambodians feel about the tribunal?
KAROPKIN: I haven't been in Cambodia long enough to have a sense of how they feel about it. But I think the reaction is a mixed one. There's disappointment that it's taken so long.
I also sense quite a longing that this be addressed in some fashion. And that if the tribunal moves forward and gives them a sense of their own history, releases them from their past, then they can go forward.
By Kevin Sites,
Tue Jul 18 2006
http://hotzone.yahoo.com
PHNOM PENH, Cambodia - When the Khmer Rouge came to power in Cambodia in 1975, their leader, Pol Pot, proclaimed that it was "Year Zero" in the newly-renamed Democratic Republic of Kampuchea and that the society would not only be transformed from urban to rural, but recreated as a utopian agricultural paradise.
When the experiment was over, as many as two million people were dead, murdered in a vast wave of violence that turned the entire nation into a giant killing field.
The genocide finally ended after forces from neighboring Vietnam overthrew the regime in 1979. But not a single Khmer Rouge leader has seen the inside of a courtroom for the crimes committed against humanity.
Finally, almost 30 years later, the government of Cambodia, working with the United Nations, is establishing an international tribunal to prosecute major figures from the Khmer Rouge establishment — ones that haven't already died, like Pol Pot in 1998, or others too sick to stand trial.
Martin Karopkin, a trial commissioner for the New York City Police Department, applied for a place on the tribunal and was selected as a reserve judge. The main contingent in the tribunal will be Cambodian jurists but there are also judges from the Netherlands, France, Poland, Australia, Japan and other nations. Karopkin is the only American.
He was in Phnom Penh in early July for the first meeting of the tribunal. I talked with him at his hotel about the future proceedings and whether justice will finally be served. Just days after the interview, reports emerged that Ta Mok, an army chief in the Pol Pot regime known as "The Butcher" and one of the two top Khmer Rouge leaders in custody, is in a coma and could die at any moment.
KEVIN SITES: With so much time gone by and so many of the former Khmer Rouge leaders dead, like Pol Pot, and others sick and dying, who will actually be prosecuted, and how?
MARTIN KAROPKIN: None of the specifics have been brought up yet on who will be tried. Investigating judges will sift through the evidence and help make those decisions but the mandate is to find those that are most responsible. The tribunal needs to go after everyone at all levels.
The court is a historic event and since it's been long delayed it will take a lot of effort to provide the proper ajudication. But considering the amount of time that's gone by, this court can also help establish something very significant: a formal historical record (of the genocide).
There have been lengthy negotiations between the Cambodian government and United Nations, which will help ensure that a sense of fairness and international standards of law are applied.
SITES: What kind of timeline are we looking at?
KAROPKIN: Judges will be returning to their own countries after this initial meeting and the thing won't commence for at least six months. But we're talking about a three-year timetable for all the trials and appeals, which many of us feel is very optimistic.
SITES: Where is the process right now?
KAROPKIN: We're focusing on how to function, on how to go forward. The biggest problem we face is the fact that almost 30 years have passed, and we all understand that 30-year delay will impact every aspect, including those that would've been tried that have already died and those that are very ill.
SITES: Cambodia seems like it's moved on in many ways. Why is it so important to pursue this?
KAROPKIN: Fundamentally it's wrong to ignore an event like this. An event of this magnitude needs to be pursued as long as it can.
On a personal level I hope it will bring a sense of closure to all involved. The key issue here is that this is being addressed in some fashion. To do nothing, to ignore it, is not adequate.
SITES: Are there other pressing reasons to conduct this tribunal?
KAROPKIN: Unfortunately we live in a time when there have been some shocking genocides and the world needs a way to respond to it. Jurisprudence is one response to meet this unfortunate need. And by addressing it, it may also act as a check against future genocides, that those who perpetrate these kind of things will have a day of reckoning.
SITES: But these tribunals are after the fact. Why, in your view, is the international community so slow to come to grips with these crimes both in preventing them and then in helping to pursue justice once they've happened?
KAROPKIN: I think as human beings, most of us are simply puzzled that this kind of thing has occurred. I think there's a tendency to try and avoid it because it's painful and hard to appreciate.
We'd like to believe it's not a part of the human condition, but that's an unfortunate euphoric denial. We do need to move to the place where we're not having these kind of discussions. These tribunals do focus our attention on what happened but they also come after the fact. That attention has to come before they're allowed to happen.
SITES: The U.N. doesn't have the best record as far as recent genocides are concerned with Rwanda and now Darfur. Why should they be trusted to handle justice on this one?
KAROPKIN: I believe the U.N. is the last best hope for man. It offers an opportunity for people all over the world to speak and address each other. Like humans, there are good parts to the U.N. and parts that are flawed. We need to work hard to eliminate the flaws but we need to also recognize that the U.N. reflects the best of our aspirations.
SITES: Do you hope your participation will somehow serve to inform Americans more about what happened in Cambodia?
KAROPKIN: My mission is to ensure as best I can that the trials go forward and are conducted in a professional way to the highest legal standards, human rights standards. Anything else that flows from that is just extra. For judges it's about providing justice, it's not about being on the commission.
SITES: What's your take on how the Cambodians feel about the tribunal?
KAROPKIN: I haven't been in Cambodia long enough to have a sense of how they feel about it. But I think the reaction is a mixed one. There's disappointment that it's taken so long.
I also sense quite a longing that this be addressed in some fashion. And that if the tribunal moves forward and gives them a sense of their own history, releases them from their past, then they can go forward.
2 comments:
American doesn't take crime lightly.
Mr.Koropkin is also a trail commissioner
of New York State police department.
He know what he is doing. I'm hoping that others hear him well.
Will The KRT able to pin down who were the real mastermind behind that killing machine?
KAROPKIN: . . . . Investigating judges will sift through the evidence and help make those decisions but the mandate is to find those that are most responsible. The tribunal needs to go after everyone at all levels.
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