Khieu Samphan, left, and Nuon Chea, right, attend the funeral for the former wife of Pol Pot, the late Khmer Rouge leader who died in 1998.Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Original report from Phnom Penh
31 July 2007
Click here to listen Q&A with Khieu Samphan in Khmer
Khieu Samphan was the nominal head of state of Democratic Kampuchea, the official name for the regime of the Khmer Rouge. In recent days, after tribunal prosecutors handed a confidential list of five suspects to investigating judges, Khieu Samphan, 76, has become increasingly outspoken. And even though he has not yet been named as a suspect, he has hired a lawyer.
He spoke to VOA Khmer by phone in an interview from Pailin Monday. Below is a transcript, translated from Khmer to English.
Q: Former Khmer Rouge leaders are being blamed for the "Killing Fields" regime. What was the meaning of the "Killing Fields" regime at the time?
A: I want to point out a document detailing a meeting of the Permanent Committee of the Khmer Communist Party on May 14, 1976, in which the team leader reported the results of talks on the border issue with Vietnam. Prior to the talks, Vietnam recognized the Brévié Line with Prince [Norodom] Sihanouk. But after the May 14, 1976, meeting, Vietnam refused to respect Cambodia's border and started an encroachment while talking about friendship and solidarity with Cambodia.
This was an ultimatum for the Democratic Kampuchea government, and fighting broke out between Cambodia and Vietnam. Pol Pot took a firm stand against Vietnam. Some Khmers who fought with Vietnam against the French were not very happy and accused the Khmer Rouge of provoking a war against a bigger and stronger foe.
The Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnamese villages, but only in defense of its land. [Former US State Department official] Kenneth Quinn reported that the "Chan Chakrei" forces were disguised as Khmer Liberation forces to fight the Khmer Rouge. The Vietnamese made the Khmer Rouge fight the Khmer Rouge.
I regret the failure to reach a Khmer reconciliation under the Paris Agreement because of foreign influence. Before the Paris Agreement , the Supreme National Council was the only source of authority, and it was good to have Prince Sihanouk as its president. At that time the three-party coalition was working well, for one decade. But there was an attempt to block the functioning of the SNC. The control was turned over to the UNTAC head, Mr. [Yasushi] Akashi. Instead of monitoring the withdrawal of foreign troops from Cambodia, UNTAC turned its focus on the elections, even when Akashi admitted that the atmosphere was not neutral for an election. At that time the Khmer Rouge decided not to participate in the election and was blamed for the genocide.
The Khmer Rouge had a duty to defend the country against Vietnamese encroachment, and if the Khmer Rouge had not fought then, Cambodia would have fallen into Vietnamese hands in 1970. There were some mistakes made, but in the name of saving the nation, not in the genocide of our own people.
Q: What was the Khmer Rouge's involvement in the genocide?
A: It's a very complex problem. You know nobody is trying to kill his own people, his own race. You know guerrilla warfare is a very difficult task. Trying to avoid B-52 bombs is not easy. I want to refer everyone to read Ben Kiernan's book, "The Pol Pot Regime," page 115. It's [about] the internal discussions of the Permanent Committee of the Cambodian Communist Party, of which I was not a member, but was invited to attend. In the middle of June, 1971, things began to happen the way Pol Pot predicted, as a policy of strangulation.
A number of countries were involved with the Khmer Rouge. Which countries were those?
I'm talking about Vietnam. There was a strategy of a python trying to strangle a chick. You go ahead and read the documents I told you about and ask Vietnam to respond; show the documents to the Vietnamese Embassy.
Q: Some of the current leaders in the Cambodian government may have been involved in the Democratic Kampuchea regime at that time. Do you know their background?
A: I'm sorry I cannot talk about this.
He spoke to VOA Khmer by phone in an interview from Pailin Monday. Below is a transcript, translated from Khmer to English.
Q: Former Khmer Rouge leaders are being blamed for the "Killing Fields" regime. What was the meaning of the "Killing Fields" regime at the time?
A: I want to point out a document detailing a meeting of the Permanent Committee of the Khmer Communist Party on May 14, 1976, in which the team leader reported the results of talks on the border issue with Vietnam. Prior to the talks, Vietnam recognized the Brévié Line with Prince [Norodom] Sihanouk. But after the May 14, 1976, meeting, Vietnam refused to respect Cambodia's border and started an encroachment while talking about friendship and solidarity with Cambodia.
This was an ultimatum for the Democratic Kampuchea government, and fighting broke out between Cambodia and Vietnam. Pol Pot took a firm stand against Vietnam. Some Khmers who fought with Vietnam against the French were not very happy and accused the Khmer Rouge of provoking a war against a bigger and stronger foe.
The Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnamese villages, but only in defense of its land. [Former US State Department official] Kenneth Quinn reported that the "Chan Chakrei" forces were disguised as Khmer Liberation forces to fight the Khmer Rouge. The Vietnamese made the Khmer Rouge fight the Khmer Rouge.
I regret the failure to reach a Khmer reconciliation under the Paris Agreement because of foreign influence. Before the Paris Agreement , the Supreme National Council was the only source of authority, and it was good to have Prince Sihanouk as its president. At that time the three-party coalition was working well, for one decade. But there was an attempt to block the functioning of the SNC. The control was turned over to the UNTAC head, Mr. [Yasushi] Akashi. Instead of monitoring the withdrawal of foreign troops from Cambodia, UNTAC turned its focus on the elections, even when Akashi admitted that the atmosphere was not neutral for an election. At that time the Khmer Rouge decided not to participate in the election and was blamed for the genocide.
The Khmer Rouge had a duty to defend the country against Vietnamese encroachment, and if the Khmer Rouge had not fought then, Cambodia would have fallen into Vietnamese hands in 1970. There were some mistakes made, but in the name of saving the nation, not in the genocide of our own people.
Q: What was the Khmer Rouge's involvement in the genocide?
A: It's a very complex problem. You know nobody is trying to kill his own people, his own race. You know guerrilla warfare is a very difficult task. Trying to avoid B-52 bombs is not easy. I want to refer everyone to read Ben Kiernan's book, "The Pol Pot Regime," page 115. It's [about] the internal discussions of the Permanent Committee of the Cambodian Communist Party, of which I was not a member, but was invited to attend. In the middle of June, 1971, things began to happen the way Pol Pot predicted, as a policy of strangulation.
A number of countries were involved with the Khmer Rouge. Which countries were those?
I'm talking about Vietnam. There was a strategy of a python trying to strangle a chick. You go ahead and read the documents I told you about and ask Vietnam to respond; show the documents to the Vietnamese Embassy.
Q: Some of the current leaders in the Cambodian government may have been involved in the Democratic Kampuchea regime at that time. Do you know their background?
A: I'm sorry I cannot talk about this.
17 comments:
Le vétéran qui accuse les Khmers rouges
LE MONDE | 22.05.07 | 14h30 • Mis à jour le 03.07.07 | 16h22
TAVENG (nord-est du Cambodge) ÉNVOYÉ SPÉCIAL
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e vieillard maigre mais solide, vêtu d'une simple étoffe nouée à la ceinture, la peau du buste plissée et luisante comme un batracien, assis en tailleur dans la pièce unique de la maison, est aussi résolu que le suggère sa mâchoire carrée : "Je veux voir les Khieu Samphan, Ieng Sary et Nuon Chea condamnés à la prison. Ce sont des assassins. J'irai au tribunal spécial Khmers rouges à Phnom Penh. Je veux savoir ce qu'il se sera dit. Si l'on souhaite m'interroger, je témoignerai". Kham Thoeun a 80 ans et c'est le seul vétéran de toutes les guerres d'Indochine du siècle dernier encore en vie dans ce recoin de jungle du Nord-Est cambodgien qui fut la première "capitale" insurgée de Pol Pot, le chef des Khmers rouges.
Ces guerres, il en fut dès la première, le soulèvement anticolonial des Issaraks (Khmers libres) contre l'administration française, au lendemain de la seconde guerre mondiale, et jusqu'à la dernière, l'opération militaire vietnamienne de l'hiver 1978-1979 qui mit fin au régime de Pol Pot, le Kampuchéa démocratique, de meurtrière réputation.
Le vétéran n'a rien oublié des agissements des Khmers rouges. "Ces hommes ont tué avant d'avoir pris le pouvoir à Phnom Penh (en 1975). Je l'ai vu ici même", raconte-t-il. Ici, c'est une clairière, occupée par une trentaine de baraques, qui sert de chef-lieu de district à environ 5 000 habitants répartis dans la jungle alentour. Et de raconter son étonnant parcours.
"Grâce à l'appui des communistes vietnamiens, nous avions créé dans les années 1950 une poche d'indépendance que Phnom Penh ne parvenait plus à contrôler". On est ici à la lisière des hauts plateaux d'Indochine, sur la rivière O'Chhel, à équidistance (une trentaine de kilomètres à vol d'oiseau) des frontières du Vietnam et du Laos, un recoin de la célèbre "piste Ho Chi Minh". La région est majoritairement peuplée d'ethnies montagnardes. Kham Thoeun lui-même est un Brao, il s'exprime difficilement en khmer, plus facilement en vietnamien ou en lao.
"Le Parti communiste cambodgien s'est installé ici au milieu des années 1960, poursuit-il. Mais c'était avant que Pol Pot n'en prenne le contrôle. Vers 1967, ce fut Ieng Sary qui devint le chef de la région. Il était plutôt populaire. La société était assez militarisée, puisque nous étions en guerre sous les bombardements américains, mais le peuple avait de quoi manger".
Puis arriva Pol Pot, qui venait d'arracher à ses mentors communistes vietnamiens la permission d'établir dans cette province de Ratanikiri une base insurgée khmère. Celle-ci deviendra effectivement la première "zone libérée" échappant au contrôle du régime de Lon Nol, à partir de 1971, sous les noms de code "Bureau 102" ou "K-5". "Dès 1970, ce fut la bagarre pour le pouvoir entre anciens Pol Pot et nouveaux Pol Pot", résume à grands traits le combattant, qui avait alors été fait administrateur civil du district. "De 1970 à 1975, ils se sont mis à s'entre-tuer en se traitant mutuellement de traîtres. Les nouveaux accusaient les anciens d'être à la solde des Vietnamiens. Ieng Sary s'est mis du côté de Pol Pot. Il y a dans la région des charniers qui remontent à cette époque-là", alors que la guerre américaine faisait rage. "Et la population a été progressivement réduite à l'esclavage. D'ailleurs, beaucoup de gens avaient fui, emmenant famille et bétail. Taveng était devenue une ville vide de civils".
Ce témoignage tord le cou à la légende selon laquelle la zone est du pays n'a connu qu'une forme adoucie de la dictature polpotiste par rapport à l'ouest, où les charniers de victimes, ensevelies parfois vivantes, abondent. Dès avant la prise de Phnom Penh, les Khmers rouges s'exerçaient ici à un règne sanglant, comme le suggérait la CIA américaine dans une incrédulité générale.
Kham Thoeun, comme d'autres, prit sa décision : s'enfuir. Un mois de marche dans la jungle vers le nord, à l'été 1975, et il se retrouva à Pakse, au Laos. Il y trouva un petit boulot de garçon de café. La guerre était finie. Les communistes avaient gagné la partie en Indochine. Sous Pol Pot, la tragédie du Cambodge commençait.
"Puis en 1978, des conseillers vietnamiens sont venus au Laos rassembler d'anciens soldats cambodgiens pour partir s'entraîner au Vietnam et former une armée contre Pol Pot. Nous fûmes 300 volontaires". Volontaires ? "Absolument ! Nous voulions en finir avec Pol Pot et ses proches. Ils avaient tué tant de monde". Ils participèrent à l'entrée des troupes vietnamiennes qui allaient mettre fin, le 7 janvier 1979, à l'expérience totalitaire du Kampuchéa démocratique. "Si c'était à refaire, je le referais, ajoute Kham Thoeun. Je veux absolument aller à Phnom Penh. Je veux savoir ce qui est dit au sujet de ces hommes. Comment le tribunal les traite, les condamne. C'est mon dernier acte politique".
Tout le monde n'est pas aussi passionné, à Taveng. Thie Sokun, la tenancière de l'une des deux gargotes du village, n'a pas "le temps de s'occuper de ce procès". D'ailleurs, dit-elle, "nous n'avons aucune information. C'est une affaire qui ne regarde que Phnom Penh". Elle est pourtant chef adjoint du village.
Venue des bords du Mékong, plus à l'ouest, elle s'est installée ici en 1996, quand le gouvernement de Hun Sen, l'actuel premier ministre, a négocié la reddition des insurgés khmers rouges de ces parages. Arrivée avec ses cinq enfants pour fuir un mari qui s'était mis en ménage avec une autre femme, elle a obtenu du gouvernement un prêt lui permettant de construire son échoppe.
Kham Thoeun, pour services rendus au pays, a quant à lui obtenu une maison qu'il a ensuite revendue pour payer ses soins médicaux, sa maigre retraite ne suffisant pas. Il s'est installé chez des neveux. Au cours de toutes ces années de combat, il n'a jamais rencontré Pol Pot ou aucun des grands chefs Khmers rouges en procès à Phnom Penh.
Francis Deron
Article paru dans l'édition du 23.05.07.
I bet these seniority of KHMER ROUGE knows alot of YOUN disguised themself amongst KHMER ROUGE to kill Cambodian. I heard YOUN really scare if the trial turn against them. I hope the truth reveal. KHMER united KHMER wind. Jayo Khmer!
He's right. Vietnam does share culpability. It was the North Vietnamese who put him and his butchering little communist friends in power to begin with.
Khmer sralanh Khmer said...
I quite agree with Khieu Samphan's clear statement because Yuon secret agents/spies, who have secretly impersonated themselves as the Khmer Rouge whose hands were used in the name of Angkar Leu/Cap Tren to brutally kill Khmer innocent people,can speak, write and read Khmer much better than all the Khmer Rouge soldiers, are well-educated in Khmer culture, religion, langauge, tradition and custom...etc.:
KS: But, I already told you, it was the Vietnamese ultimatum. This means that the Vietnamese tried to provoke internal troubles in the country.
Khmer sralanh Khmer
Where is Seihaknouk the king of khmer rouge ,why you are hiding,if you are the real Grand farther king do volunteer to be a witness and prove it that yuonyiekcongyieknam kill Cambodian 1.75 million people.If you are coward chicken, for thousand and thousand Years your name has never erased and you are still a king of killer or the king of killing field.
koun khmer pheas Chloun
Does anyone have that book that he's talking about? Could you post the excerp from the book? Thanks
the fuking Vietcong are in trouble now! stop pretending u fuking VC!
I support the statement of Lok Khieu Samphan 100%. In fact it was the strategy of YOUN disguised in KR soldiers. It was about 65% of them were mixed with the KR at that time, mostly the top ANGKAR in every district. One true story that I was told by the reliable witnesses in 1993 when I went back to Cambodia. They were the hard labor workers duering KR regime in one of the deadliest group in northern province.
One nite they (workers)went to a big bush a little far away from the working field. Shortly after they were ready to (Caca) then 3 ANGKARs came into that bush. It was very very surprised for the workers when they heard 3 of them spoke VNmese amongs each other to plan the schedule to kill our khmer wrokers (Who should bring to kill first and who will be next).
Now I let our compatriotes to justify this story. The main brain were from VNmese (Bo Doi)and put pressure on the KR cadres (Like a piton queezed the chicken). Who were the real killers to our kmers during that period ???
Before Pol Pot were killed, I remembered Pol Pot used to have an interview with a reporter from Hong Kong. He told the reporter that "look at my face, do I look like a killer". He said that during the KR time, most of the killing happened near the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. The people in other provinces, if they died, because they dont have food to eat. But the people in Phnom Penh, especially the educated people, they will be killed. WHY???
Because Vietnam knows that if they killed all the educated people, that means later, it will take years for Cambodia to educated Cambodian people to be educated people. When people who are educated, they know how to stand up for their country, not like the stupid current CPP leaders who just love power without caring about their country's benefits. This is why Vietnam already framed and build up a CPP as it is today.
Remember that Hor Nam Hong used to be one of the person who supervised the Toul Sleng. He is the one who master mind to kill our educated Cambodian people. If we look at Toul Sleng, we knew right away that, Vietnam planned it pretty well. That means, Khmer Killed Khmer and take pictures about how the Khmer people were killed. Why???? because the Vietnam can use it to blame on KR regime and used toul sleng as an evident. Stupid people still can think that it is a setup. No killer is stupid to save the evidents for other people come to get it so they can accuse them as the killer later. Think about it.
In Vietnam, there is a place, called Ba Chuc vilage. Vietnam do the same thing. They saved all the pictures of how Pol Pot soldiers killed Vietnamese. Is this the same case? Why Vietnam dont bring it to International court to against KR because the International Court of Justice never believe them.
I am sure that after the announcement like this by Mr. Khieu Samphan, Vietnam will spend their secret agent to kill him soon like they did to Pol Pot.
I urge the ICJ to send foreign polices to protect Mr. Khieu Samphan. Dont sent Cambodia police because Cambodian police is just a puppet of Vietnam.
If anyone has the Book that Mr. Khieu Samphan mentioned in the interview, please post it on the Internet to share our KI Readers.
I am realy appreciated, in advance, if anyone could share this electronically. Ah Youn is the main killer of our countrymen, and we will find out.
Best Regards,
Khmer Next Gen.
Safe and secure witness protection programs would ensure and definitely reveal the truth identity of the mass murderers.
I whole heartly believe these Khmer Rouge leaders. They are probably our [Khmer] last resource to reveal the truth as to what really happened during the 60's up to 90's.
Khiev Samphan said, "When the water is clear . . . . . " and this is probably the time that the "water is clear . . . ". BUT ALL OF THESE KHMER ROUGE LEADERS HAVE TO BECAREFUL. THEY HAVE TO KNOW HOW, WHAT, WHERE, AND TO WHOM TO REPORT TO"
All of these remainding Khmer Rouge leaders, again and again, have said that they "don't afraid of facing judgment in court . . . they would reveal the truth to the world". Did anyone here believe that Pol Pot and Ta Mok died of natural causes? Think again.
In front of me, I have the book, "The Pol Pot Regime" by Ben Kiernan. Please buy one and read it. It cost about $23 U.S. dollars. Check on google - ebay.
THESE KHMER ROUGE LEADERS WILL ENTER THE TRIBUNAL COURTROOM WITH PROUD AND HONORE AND DIE WITH DIGNITY.
AH YUON CHONG RAIY!!!!
Mr.Keiv Samphon was the name of Khmer Hero & not the killer. What ever happened to 2 millions of us is beyond anyone imagination.
We need to hear more.
His face said, what do you want? I know that i was not a killer.
It has become more interesting now to hear from people who control the country during pol pot regim. We need to hear what was exactly happen and why it happended. We also want to know government officer who work for pol pot and now they work in Cambodian governemnt. What did those guys do during that time.
AnythingAtAll and Cambodia
http://anythingatallblog.blogspot.com
I wonder why so many KR leaders like Keat Chhun, former Pol Pot adviser, Hor Nam Hong, Y Chhean, former Pol Pot bodyguard and others work with Hun Sen. Ieng Sary, is the one who appealed to the educated cambdodian returned to the killing fields. I think that Hun Sen knows everything.
I am a Koun Khmer who was borne after 1979. I know little about what was happening prior to and during 1975-79. But one thing for sure, I know ALL khmer people lost their family members during the Pol Pot regime (including my parents'). It's the POL POT regime.. It's the Angkar.. It's the Wicked-Black-Costume-People who were known as Khmers and THE ONE THING I ALWAYS HEARD FROM MY PARENTS - It's Khmers killing Khmers.. I don't know whether the Khmers who killed Khmers then were under Youn's influence or whatever, which even if that was the case, were they not to blame for killing their own race just because they are under Youn's influence? don't they have their own brain?
And i don't understand why the hell are some people here still trying to defend the killers and treating them with their highest esteem.. I really want to vomit if thse people are real Khmer! Unless they are just one of those cheap politicians who are willing to do anything for their political gain..
Just from my logical point of view..
11:19AM:
You confuse me man! If Youn = Angkar then why later Youn fight Angkar?? I heard Youn lost alot of lives during the fighting. Are youns stupid or what who like to play with their people' life? what's the motivation behind? If Youn ignored Cambodia then, what would have happened? I heard the killings were getting harsher and harsher towards the end of the POL POT regime?
What's the story behind this genocide? Perhaps it's more than just a phsyco group of people.
Khmeng Khmer Chomnurn Kroy
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