Showing posts with label Jewish holocaust. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Jewish holocaust. Show all posts

Friday, September 03, 2010

The Perils of Indifference

The Perils of Indifference by most famous holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has many resonances for us Cambodians. The title says it all - in light of our Khmer Rouge history and the KR mentality of fear and intimidation which continues to exist to this day, as well as human rights abuses of land evictions, using the court as a political tool etc. The middle way does not work in this case: you are either for justice or injustice; you either care or are indifferent. Omission is as much a sin as commission. You cannot be a bystander in life to abuses and still call yourself "moral" or free of guilt. The choice is yours: do you stand on the side of justice or injustice? Simply put, justice is not neutral. It stands on the side of the poor and the oppressed. -- www.thearyseng.com

Elie Wiesel
delivered 12 April 1999, Washington, D.C.

Mr. President, Mrs. Clinton, members of Congress, Ambassador Holbrooke, Excellencies, friends:

Fifty-four years ago to the day, a young Jewish boy from a small town in the Carpathian Mountains woke up, not far from Goethe's beloved Weimar, in a place of eternal infamy called Buchenwald. He was finally free, but there was no joy in his heart. He thought there never would be again. Liberated a day earlier by American soldiers, he remembers their rage at what they saw. And even if he lives to be a very old man, he will always be grateful to them for that rage, and also for their compassion. Though he did not understand their language, their eyes told him what he needed to know -- that they, too, would remember, and bear witness.

And now, I stand before you, Mr. President -- Commander-in-Chief of the army that freed me, and tens of thousands of others -- and I am filled with a profound and abiding gratitude to the American people. "Gratitude" is a word that I cherish. Gratitude is what defines the humanity of the human being. And I am grateful to you, Hillary, or Mrs. Clinton, for what you said, and for what you are doing for children in the world, for the homeless, for the victims of injustice, the victims of destiny and society. And I thank all of you for being here.

We are on the threshold of a new century, a new millennium. What will the legacy of this vanishing century be? How will it be remembered in the new millennium? Surely it will be judged, and judged severely, in both moral and metaphysical terms. These failures have cast a dark shadow over humanity: two World Wars, countless civil wars, the senseless chain of assassinations (Gandhi, the Kennedys, Martin Luther King, Sadat, Rabin), bloodbaths in Cambodia and Algeria, India and Pakistan, Ireland and Rwanda, Eritrea and Ethiopia, Sarajevo and Kosovo; the inhumanity in the gulag and the tragedy of Hiroshima. And, on a different level, of course, Auschwitz and Treblinka. So much violence; so much indifference.

What is indifference? Etymologically, the word means "no difference." A strange and unnatural state in which the lines blur between light and darkness, dusk and dawn, crime and punishment, cruelty and compassion, good and evil. What are its courses and inescapable consequences? Is it a philosophy? Is there a philosophy of indifference conceivable? Can one possibly view indifference as a virtue? Is it necessary at times to practice it simply to keep one's sanity, live normally, enjoy a fine meal and a glass of wine, as the world around us experiences harrowing upheavals?

Of course, indifference can be tempting -- more than that, seductive. It is so much easier to look away from victims. It is so much easier to avoid such rude interruptions to our work, our dreams, our hopes. It is, after all, awkward, troublesome, to be involved in another person's pain and despair. Yet, for the person who is indifferent, his or her neighbor are of no consequence. And, therefore, their lives are meaningless. Their hidden or even visible anguish is of no interest. Indifference reduces the Other to an abstraction.

Over there, behind the black gates of Auschwitz, the most tragic of all prisoners were the "Muselmanner," as they were called. Wrapped in their torn blankets, they would sit or lie on the ground, staring vacantly into space, unaware of who or where they were -- strangers to their surroundings. They no longer felt pain, hunger, thirst. They feared nothing. They felt nothing. They were dead and did not know it.

Rooted in our tradition, some of us felt that to be abandoned by humanity then was not the ultimate. We felt that to be abandoned by God was worse than to be punished by Him. Better an unjust God than an indifferent one. For us to be ignored by God was a harsher punishment than to be a victim of His anger. Man can live far from God -- not outside God. God is wherever we are. Even in suffering? Even in suffering.

In a way, to be indifferent to that suffering is what makes the human being inhuman. Indifference, after all, is more dangerous than anger and hatred. Anger can at times be creative. One writes a great poem, a great symphony. One does something special for the sake of humanity because one is angry at the injustice that one witnesses. But indifference is never creative. Even hatred at times may elicit a response. You fight it. You denounce it. You disarm it.

Indifference elicits no response. Indifference is not a response. Indifference is not a beginning; it is an end. And, therefore, indifference is always the friend of the enemy, for it benefits the aggressor -- never his victim, whose pain is magnified when he or she feels forgotten. The political prisoner in his cell, the hungry children, the homeless refugees -- not to respond to their plight, not to relieve their solitude by offering them a spark of hope is to exile them from human memory. And in denying their humanity, we betray our own.

Indifference, then, is not only a sin, it is a punishment.

And this is one of the most important lessons of this outgoing century's wide-ranging experiments in good and evil.

In the place that I come from, society was composed of three simple categories: the killers, the victims, and the bystanders. During the darkest of times, inside the ghettoes and death camps -- and I'm glad that Mrs. Clinton mentioned that we are now commemorating that event, that period, that we are now in the Days of Remembrance -- but then, we felt abandoned, forgotten. All of us did.

And our only miserable consolation was that we believed that Auschwitz and Treblinka were closely guarded secrets; that the leaders of the free world did not know what was going on behind those black gates and barbed wire; that they had no knowledge of the war against the Jews that Hitler's armies and their accomplices waged as part of the war against the Allies. If they knew, we thought, surely those leaders would have moved heaven and earth to intervene. They would have spoken out with great outrage and conviction. They would have bombed the railways leading to Birkenau, just the railways, just once.

And now we knew, we learned, we discovered that the Pentagon knew, the State Department knew. And the illustrious occupant of the White House then, who was a great leader -- and I say it with some anguish and pain, because, today is exactly 54 years marking his death -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt died on April the 12th, 1945. So he is very much present to me and to us. No doubt, he was a great leader. He mobilized the American people and the world, going into battle, bringing hundreds and thousands of valiant and brave soldiers in America to fight fascism, to fight dictatorship, to fight Hitler. And so many of the young people fell in battle. And, nevertheless, his image in Jewish history -- I must say it -- his image in Jewish history is flawed.


The depressing tale of the St. Louis is a case in point. Sixty years ago, its human cargo -- nearly 1,000 Jews -- was turned back to Nazi Germany. And that happened after the Kristallnacht, after the first state sponsored pogrom, with hundreds of Jewish shops destroyed, synagogues burned, thousands of people put in concentration camps. And that ship, which was already in the shores of the United States, was sent back. I don't understand. Roosevelt was a good man, with a heart. He understood those who needed help. Why didn't he allow these refugees to disembark? A thousand people -- in America, the great country, the greatest democracy, the most generous of all new nations in modern history. What happened? I don't understand. Why the indifference, on the highest level, to the suffering of the victims?

But then, there were human beings who were sensitive to our tragedy. Those non-Jews, those Christians, that we call the "Righteous Gentiles," whose selfless acts of heroism saved the honor of their faith. Why were they so few? Why was there a greater effort to save SS murderers after the war than to save their victims during the war? Why did some of America's largest corporations continue to do business with Hitler's Germany until 1942? It has been suggested, and it was documented, that the Wehrmacht could not have conducted its invasion of France without oil obtained from American sources. How is one to explain their indifference?

And yet, my friends, good things have also happened in this traumatic century: the defeat of Nazism, the collapse of communism, the rebirth of Israel on its ancestral soil, the demise of apartheid, Israel's peace treaty with Egypt, the peace accord in Ireland. And let us remember the meeting, filled with drama and emotion, between Rabin and Arafat that you, Mr. President, convened in this very place. I was here and I will never forget it.

And then, of course, the joint decision of the United States and NATO to intervene in Kosovo and save those victims, those refugees, those who were uprooted by a man, whom I believe that because of his crimes, should be charged with crimes against humanity.

But this time, the world was not silent. This time, we do respond. This time, we intervene.

Does it mean that we have learned from the past? Does it mean that society has changed? Has the human being become less indifferent and more human? Have we really learned from our experiences? Are we less insensitive to the plight of victims of ethnic cleansing and other forms of injustices in places near and far? Is today's justified intervention in Kosovo, led by you, Mr. President, a lasting warning that never again will the deportation, the terrorization of children and their parents, be allowed anywhere in the world? Will it discourage other dictators in other lands to do the same?

What about the children? Oh, we see them on television, we read about them in the papers, and we do so with a broken heart. Their fate is always the most tragic, inevitably. When adults wage war, children perish. We see their faces, their eyes. Do we hear their pleas? Do we feel their pain, their agony? Every minute one of them dies of disease, violence, famine.

Some of them -- so many of them -- could be saved.

And so, once again, I think of the young Jewish boy from the Carpathian Mountains. He has accompanied the old man I have become throughout these years of quest and struggle. And together we walk towards the new millennium, carried by profound fear and extraordinary hope.

Wednesday, November 04, 2009

HOLOCAUST and CULTURE OF MEMORY: Photo Diary of Cambodian Diaspora and the German Experience

HOLOCAUST and CULTURE OF MEMORY:
Photo Diary of Cambodian Diaspora and the German Experience
May, July–September 2009.
By Theary C. SENG
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We, Cambodians, are given a “spectacular event” in the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia to transition from a 30-year “period of communicative silence” to building a “culture of memory”.

The ECCC is both a “court of law” and a “court of public opinion” (see 19 Sept. 2009 KI-Media, Theary Seng’s Press Statement with Germany’s Federal Minister for Economic Development, Berlin) which will produce countless materials and resources toward the establishing of a more POSITIVE LEGACY and a more HONORABLE CULTURE OF MEMORY.

The desired legacy includes more than just a better legal/judicial system, but encompasses a culture of dialogue and creative expression, of personal/collective responsibility, of de-stigmatizing/sensitivity to mental health etc. A more honorable culture of memory declines the powers-that-be (in politics, civil society, donor community, in the ECCC or otherwise) from pursuing a revisionist history to whitewash one’s own complicity or to be a megalomaniac in claiming a “Super-Victim” status or to grandstand and build up the professional resumes.

I. ECCC Civil Party Theary C. SENG conducting Civil Party Seminars for Cambodian survivors in Brussels, Belgium (on way to The Hague, sponsored by IDRC) and Paris / Toulouse, France (on way to Lisbon, sponsored by Taiwan Foundation for Democracy)

In the ECCC, it is the first time in international law and mixed/international tribunals whereby victims of mass atrocities are given the status of a direct party in the criminal proceeding. As survivors of the Khmer Rouge, we should make every opportunity of getting involved and shaping this process, wherever we may be – in country or in the diaspora spread across the world.

Theary Seng with author of J’ai Cru aux Khmers Rouges, ONG Thong Hoeung, and Cambodian survivors in Brussels, Civil Party Seminar, Belgium, 21 May 2009.


Theary Seng at MacArthur Foundation’s International Justice Award to Richard Goldstone. ICC Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo addressing panel of international justice / human rights luminaries, The Hague, 25 May 2009.

Theary Seng with author PIN Yathay holding his memoir Stay Alive, My Son. Civil Party Seminar, Paris. 6 July 2009.

Theary Seng with Mr. PHIN Malay and Dr. SENG Chen An after 2-hour live radio broadcast on Canal Sud, FM 92.2 in Toulouse addressing issues of KR legacy and culture of memory and later at a Civil Party Seminar, Toulouse, 7 July 2009.

II. “Collective Sharing and Healing”: Khmer Rouge Tribunal Forum II, Portland, OR organized by CACO, 15 August 2009.

The Cambodian-American Community of Oregon (CACO) organized with heart and soul this second forum in their city as evidenced by the audience and their engagement.

Cambodian survivors in Portland each holding a candle of commemoration; Theary Seng with Fmr. US Ambassador to UN, Hon. Sichan SIV; the indefatigable Ronnie YIMSUT treating Dr. Wendy Freed and Dr. Craig Etcheson (the unrelenting hunter of KR leaders and co- founder of Documentation Center of Cambodia, DC-Cam with Ben Kiernan and Helen Jarvis in 1995) and Theary Seng to a visit of Mt. Hood.

III. Theary Seng’s 3-weeks in Berlin learning about Germany’s Culture of Memory (sponsored by the German Development Service and the Friedrich Naumann Stiftung)

One cannot help but be extremely impressed with the courage and creativity of Germany in confronting its Nazi and Stasi past. Anyone who wants to learn how to genuinely transition out of the Period of Communicative Silence (as memorably put by Dr. Wolfgang Thierse, vice-president of the Bundestag who inaugurated the Holocaust Museum in Berlin) must visit Germany, in particular Berlin.

Theary Seng speaking with Germany’s Federal Minister for Economic Development Heide-Marie who initiated the Civil Peace Service 10 years ago, part of the ongoing legacy of Germany’s culture of memory, Berlin, 19 Aug. 2009.

Theary Seng being treated to lunch by Anja Justen of FriEnt (Working Group on Development and Peace), with DED Michael Eberlein and Jost Pachaly of Heinrich Boll Stiftung after a roundtable discussion on “Psycho-Social Accompaniment in Transitional Justice Processes – The Cambodian Experience”, preceded by another roundtable discussion at the Treatment Center of Victims of Torture, Berlin organized by Britta Jenkins and her colleagues (Dr. Christine Knaevelsrud, psychologist Katrin Schock, Nadine Stammel and Estelle both of whom had conducted 6-months research in Cambodia, and followed by an amazing conversation with Natascha Zupan who coordinates all of FriEnt, Berlin, 20 Aug. 2009.

Theary Seng accompanied by DED Monika Falkenberg took the train outside Berlin to visit Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, a well federally-funded “authentic site”, with amazing audio guide. In front of the large compound.

Theary Seng in front of large space provided for different associations, institutions (i.e., churches) to commemorate in their own creative way the lives of those who perished at Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, again with informative audio guide available in several languages. Sachsenhausen has both preserved the “authentic site” and space for creative memorial. Everything is thoughtfully planned to facilitate the education and reflection of the visitor, outside Berlin, 21 Aug. 2009.

Every year, each of the German Ministries set aside one day for citizens and visitors to come to that particular Ministry and meet with directly with Ministry officials and view exhibitions of its work. Theary Seng standing in front of exhibition featuring CSD’s staff Om Chariya comforting a woman at Tuol Sleng, “direct democracy” or “Open Door Day” at the Federal Ministry of Economic Development, 23 Aug. 2009.

The German Parliament (Bundestag) generously sets aside hundreds of millions of Euros to fund these “authentic sites” and creative memorials to give real meaning to the “Culture of Memory”. We, Cambodians, can learn from this German experience – the building of this culture of memory must involve broad and diverse stakeholders of civil society (artists, authors in addition to traditional civil society of human rights/democracy builders) and government. 23 Aug. 2009.

The Holocaust Memorial, initiated by a civil society leader and inaugurated by then President of the German Bundestag, Dr. Wolfgang Thierse, sits in the heart of the financial, diplomatic and very touristic neighborhoods of Berlin – very central and prominent. 25 Aug. 2009.

The excellent, thoughtful Information Center sits underground. A map of all Holocaust Memorials spread across Europe. 25 Aug. 2009.

2 1/2 hrs meeting with Dr. Hubertus Knabe, director of Hohenschoenhausen Memorial, a former Stasi Prison, a preserved “ authentic site” of Stasi secrecy and paranoia. Berlin, 27 Aug. 2009.

1 ½ hours of conversation on the culture of memory and human rights in Cambodia with Dr. Wolfgang Thierse, Vice-President of German Parliament/Bundestag (transparent dome in background), who initiated the Holocaust Memorial. Theary Seng, Moritz Kleine-Brockoff, filmmaker Marc Eberle and artist Feit after the meeting in the corner conference room of Bundestag’s office building, with stunning overlooking view of Bundestag which was burned down in 1933 giving rise to Hitler and with the Berlin Wall running along its edges until 1989. (See also 19 Sept. 20 KI Media posting.) 28 Aug. 2009.

Spending 5 hours of conversations with Dr. Thomas Lutz who is the director of all the 100+ museums and memorials in Germany (!), after a very detailed tour of the Topography of Terror, at the nearby garden café. 28 Aug. 2009.

Theary Seng with filmmaker Marc Eberle in front of the Berlin Wall remnant forming an “authentic site”, the entrance of the Topography of Terror. 28 Aug. 2009.

On the way to dinner (with Marc’s friends—Judith, speech writer for Federal Minister of Health, and Udo, a famous film set designer, most recently of Same Same But Different, a love story set in Cambodia), we ran into a Stumbling Stone, a creative way of honoring the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust, one of hundreds in Berlin, 30 Aug. 2009.

Theary Seng on her way to meeting with Bert Rosenthal, Secretariat of International Relations at the Federal Commissioner for the Records of the State Security service of the former German Democratic Republic. Berlin, 31 Aug. 2009.

Theary Seng in front of the Jewish Museum, comprised of two beautiful structures – one old and the other modern, recognized worldwide as an architectural feat. Berlin, 31 Aug. 2009.

3 hours with Dr. Aubrey Pomerance, head of Archive of Jewish Museum in Berlin. Hall of faces, silently screaming to be heard, “Never Again!”. 31 Aug. 2009.

Later a conversation with Sarah Hiron, head of Education Department (on the very left in photo) and her colleague Marie Naumann, head of Publications, at the Garden Café of Jewish Museum in Berlin. She generously gave me a set of the curriculum. Group photo with Dr. Aubrey Pomerance (2nd from left), Marc Eberle (back), Theary Seng, Charles du Vinage (far right) at entrance hall of Jewish Museum, Berlin. 31 Aug. 2009.

Conversations with Bernd Schaefer (KR and Stasi scholar and senior research scholar of Cold War International History Project of Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars), Marc Eberle, Markus at the French Quarter of Berlin, 1 Sept. 2009.

Generous meeting with FDP (now junior coalition partner) Member of Parliament Hon. Hellmut Konigshaus at his Bundestag office, with Dr. Christian Taaks and Mr. Moritz Kleine-Brockoff of Friedrich Naumann Stiftung, one day before the International Conference on KR Tribunal: Scandal or Success, which he also attended amidst the election campaign season. (See 29 Sept. 2009 KI Media posting re this KRT conference in Berlin.) 2 Sept. 2009.

Theary Seng with panelists Hon. Jurgen Koppelin (German parliamentarian who opposed the KRT) and German prosecutor Jurgen Assmann, organized by and moderated by Friedrich Naumann Stiftung’s Moritz Kleine-Brockoff, Berlin, 3 Sept. 2009.

Meeting with the lovely Dr. Anna Kaminsky, executive director of Stiftung Aufarbeitung, another well federally-funded foundation (hundreds of millions of Euros!) in Berlin to archive crimes and history of Communism all over the world. Berlin, 3 Sept. 2009.

Meeting with Dr. Karen Jungblut, director of Research and Documentation of the Shoah Foundation, founded by Steven Spielberg as a result of filming Schindler’s List. USC Los Angeles, 11 Sept. 2009.

Theary Seng with cousin Visal Hok (born 2 months before end of KR regime in late 1978) on way to meeting with Karen Jungblut, with Cambodian flag in the background, at central campus of University of Southern California, permanent house of Shoah Foundation, 11 Sept. 2009.

We, Cambodians, are given the opportunity in the Khmer Rouge Tribunal to proclaim resoundingly NEVER, NEVER AGAIN!

Wednesday, December 24, 2008

Khmer Rouge Trial: "We always expect too much from justice", says historian Annette Wieviorka [-Expecting too much from an overdue justice?]

Phnom Penh (Cambodia). 17/12/2008. Annette Wieviorka, a French historian, specialist on the Shoah and Research Director at the National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) (Photo: John Vink / Magnum)

23-12-2008
By Stéphanie Gée
Ka-set in English
Click here to read the article in French
Click here to read the article in Khmer


Taken by scholars Sylvie Rollet, Soko Phay-Vakalis and Sylvie Lindeperg to attend a programme on the theme of 'trial, image and remembrance', French historian Annette Wieviorka first set foot in Cambodia in December 2008. For this occasion, she accepted to go back over the extensive question of memory and remembrance, and revealed her first impressions on the Khmer Rouge trial. The lively CNRS research director with a cause, also a lecturer and researcher at the University of Paris I, came to be known in France as one of the specialists on matters related to the Shoah, and has already written an imposing number of books. Among them, Auschwitz Explained To My Child (Da Capo Press) which has to this day been translated from the French into a dozen languages. Interview for Ka-set of someone for whom “clear retrospective conscience” is but an exasperating idea.

Ka-set : Nowadays, the expression “duty of remembrance” is used aplenty, but what meanings does it really comprise?
Annette Wieviorka : It does not comprise anything, since remembrance is not an obligation. Mechanisms of remembrance are very unpredictable for some, and happen on a non-conscious basis. We remember by following paths that are never linked with duty. The expression has become widely-used in France, to the point that it has become a slogan at Barbie's trial, in 1987. Of course, it did exist before the trial and had notably been used by prisoners sent to concentration camps when they mentioned those they left back there, in the camps, those who died there. They used to say that one had a duty to remember, to not forget them. Then, the phrase became a sort of slogan, with all sorts of derived meanings. It can hold various meanings like memory itself can hold many images. Remembrance is not an end in itself, but it must help one to reflect upon things.

K7 : What could be done to prevent wrong uses of the expression from taking over and sweep away the need for this duty to remember?
AW : Generally speaking, I would say that this could be prevented by keeping alive questions of history and the past and feeding them with knowledge and with the freedom to use this past to recount many stories, whether they be historical accounts, stories told by witnesses, or stories reported in literature or in films at the cinema... Keeping all this alive and free of any restraints, establishing knowledge – and not ignorance! - as a virtue, is very important.

As for the case of Cambodia, I will not say much because I don't know much... Yet, I feel that currently, the history of Cambodia is mainly told by foreign historians. It is very difficult to talk about a duty to remember when the process of recollecting history is only at its very beginnings and when so little is available to Cambodians. The Cambodian tragedy eradicated a whole part of middle-class teachers, intellectuals, young and old... How many years must pass till the country is finally able to recover its intellectual and middle class? It will certainly take a very long time.

K7 : Some survivors of the Khmer Rouge think the word “duty” is too heavy. They reckon the younger generations must not bear this burden. What is your view on this?
AW : The duty of remembrance is indeed very heavy. It is very hard for parents to tell their children that they are victims. Now, time passes by and we have reached the generation of victims' grandchildren. Someone who was an adult under the Khmer Rouge regime, if they survived, might today be a grandparent. Then, as it is often the case, the handing down of memories skips a generation in most families. Grandparents talk more easily to their grandchildren than they do to their own children. The question of generations is very important.

What strikes me in Cambodia is that among the very active victims that we met, there are people like Seng Theary or Youk Chhang, who were children [under the regime of Democratic Kampuchea]. And if we take the example of victims [of the Shoah] in France, it is children too who expressed their claims. In our country, an important part of what has been written in terms of memory was done thanks to Serge Klarsfeld, who was a child [during World War II]. Children are victims but they are mainly victims because their parents were assassinated. As orphans, they hold this sort of strength in their powerful claims.

K7 : Some Cambodians born after 1979 refuse to believe that the horrors committed under the Khmer Rouge regime are the deed of Cambodians. It is as if this legacy was a shameful and too heavy a burden to bear. What could be done for historical truth to be passed on from generation to generation without any sense of guilt?
AW : I don't have the key to this, I don't know. I think that what helps getting rid of the feeling of guilt is when the burden is taken over by an external factor and when memory does not remain enclosed within families, when for instance this burden is expressed through a trial – Eichmann's trial in Israel had this unexpected effect – and eased by the state when facts are officially acknowledged. In France, when President Chirac acknowledged [in 1995] the participation of the Vichy government in the deportation of Jews, it had an easing effect. I believe there are different means to do so, but they require memory to be taken out of the enclosed family circle and passed onto a third party.

K7 : Therefore, the process of remembrance cannot be complete unless it first goes through an institutional process?
AW : Absolutely. The process cannot really happen if no authority is there to acknowledge that this did happen. It can be led to completion through various ways like the school curricula, trials, or a formal declaration from a head of state...

K7 : Is the setting up of a special internationalised tribunal to judge former Khmer Rouge cadres one of the best ways, according to you, to fight the oblivion or at least the silence that prevails today in Cambodia over this chapter of history?
AW : Yes, this is a way to do so. If it works out.

K7 : Will the Khmer Rouge trial be a trial for history, in the sense that everyone expects it to be a model for the way justice should be dealt..?
AW : I was precisely reading Thierry Cruvelier's book about Rwanda [Le Tribunal des vaincus : Un Nuremberg pour le Rwanda?, 2006, FR] and he says that “We always expect too much from justice”. I will quote him: we expect too much from justice. Victims expect too much from justice, and in that trial, people have expectations which they did not have during the trials held in France; they reflect expectations of some improvement in the country. For instance, from what I understood, some expect better justice, less corruption... Consequences are expected but we know absolutely nothing of these yet! Let us wish the trial will have repercussions on the Cambodian society. But these expectations are probably excessive - the trial will not have a magic wand effect – but it might initiate processes within the Cambodian society.

K7 : How can the Khmer Rouge tribunal accomplish its mission in a politicised context? As a matter of fact, it was set up after the policy of national reconciliation was successfully enforced by the Cambodian government and the latter made sure the principle could and would not be questioned, particularly, as we can guess, by preventing further people from being charged by the tribunal?
AW : This question is a tough one. The precept here, might be to say: we hold Duch – he's the in-between element. The efforts of the judges preparing the case for trial and prosecutors will be to show that he was not just an element in the machinery, but also to ask the question of “who was behind him?”. Foe Eichmann, that was not relevant since the people who were behind had already been judged at the Nuremberg trial. And then, the four others. It is already a good thing to have them. But do we have to struggle to go further at the risk of making the tribunal collapse with the death of someone, or should we take some never-ending action that would have a lot of effect and would make the court lose its dynamism? Making it last too long means taking many risks. So the question is whether the trial should be the one that people expect it to be or whether it should compose with the country's political reality. I have no answer to that... But I do believe strongly in one thing: we cannot foretell the consequences of a process once it has been launched. If Duch's trial does happen, nobody is able to tell the consequences it will have on society. Maybe none, but it might help loosen the tongues... One cannot tell. This is why I would be more inclined to trust processes that can be initiated.

K7 : Won't the trial be biased by the fact that the international context in which the Khmer Rouge regime happened is purposely being obscured in the framework chosen by the ECCC, especially when it comes to foreign responsibility?
AW : It is true that everybody got implicated there... We can consider, like some do, that as long as this or that person is not tried in court, it won't be worth it. But we can also think that imperfect justice is still justice. Duch is still the one who stayed at S-21 and committed criminal acts, this is nobody else. This story has been written, it is still being written, and responsibilities are presented in these books.

K7 : Isn't the development of international penal law a western attribute above all?
AW : What does it mean to have these sorts of ready-to-set-up tribunals and Truth and Reconciliation Commissions whose international civil servants come and bring justice here and there? It is true that there is cause for concern and we may wonder whether this is here a new form of domination. But it is hard, since I am still convinced that democracy is the least worst system and that every being is entitled to freedom and that the values proclaimed by America are mine too. What we witness here, and it was not the case in Nuremberg, is the institutionalisation and bureaucratisation of justice. Now that is slightly scary because we wonder what type of efficiency a judicial system like this one can have. But it is also true that globalisation involves circulation. There is a coming and going meaning there are more combinations than before. On top of that, add the context of poverty and illiteracy. So what can the standards be if there are no decent standards of living to start with?

K7 : You once said that “too much memory killed thinking and too much information prevented understanding”. But nowadays, aren't we going towards an information overflow concerning the Khmer Rouge tragedy? With the launching of the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC), a thirty-year long silence was ended and victims are now starting to talk, plenty of forums are organised and there is a real profusion of articles and documentary films regarding that topic...
AW : I felt dizzy when I went on the internet: it is as if the court's door was wide-open, except on what we do not know. This contributes to the fact that we do not seek answers where they should be sought... Too much information? Maybe, but it depends on the way it is made. There is no sublime-television. In South Africa, television played an important part in the broadcasting of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings. So... what type of TV? If there was real educational will, there would be some kind of broadcasting. It is not sure whether such thing exists, but indeed, too much information does kill!