Khieu Samphan: 'I'm Also an Ordinary Person'

By Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Original report from Phnom Penh
16 November 2007

Click here to listen Heng Reaksmey Q&A with Khieu Samphan, Part IV

[Editor's note: Three hours before he suffered an apparent stroke Tuesday, Khieu Samphan gave a 20-minute phone interview to VOA Khmer. He was taken to a Phnom Penh hospital Wednesday, and has not talked to the media since his arrival. What follows is part four of a four-part series detailing Tuesday's interview.]

The UN-backed Khmer Rouge tribunal is meant to set a good example for others and to bring to Cambodia the rule of law, Khieu Samphan said, but "whether or not the expectation can be realized, I don't know."

"I cannot say anything about it until the trials actually start," he said. "If the trial is not fair, then it won't give Cambodia the rule of law. Then it will have achieved nothing."

Asked whether a tribunal would bring justice to the Cambodian people for Khmer Rouge atrocities, Khieu Samphan reiterated that his own research—he has written two books—did not show the order of mass killings. Individuals will have to be investigated, he said, but he would not comment on whether this might bring true justice to Cambodians.

Khieu Samphan, once the nominal head of the regime, is widely expected to face indictments on atrocity crimes, to follow in the path of four former Khmer Rouge leaders now in a tribunal jail awaiting trial. He has already hired French attorney Jacques Verges, a famous defender of accused terrorists, in the event he is charged.

"If I am indicted for whatever reason, it is the job of those co-prosecutors to find evidence, not mine," he said.

He declined to say what evidence he might bring in his own defense.

His final message to Cambodians if he is to be indicted, he said, would be to remind them that he is common among them.

"I don't have any message," he said, "as I am also an ordinary person."

Contorted logic? Khieu Samphan claims that "suffering can be wrong but good"

Wrongly suffered but ended up good?

Wrongly suffered and ended really bad?

Khieu Samphan: Suffering Can Be Wrong but Good

By Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Original report from Phnom Penh
15 November 2007

Click here to listen Heng Reaksmey Q&A with Khieu Samphan, Part III

[Editor's note: Three hours before he suffered an apparent stroke Tuesday, Khieu Samphan gave a 20-minute phone interview to VOA Khmer. He was taken to a Phnom Penh hospital Wednesday, and has not talked to the media since his arrival. What follows is part three of a four-part series detailing Tuesday's interview.]

There had been mass killings, yes. And they affected almost every family. But Khieu Samphan, former nominal head of the regime responsible for the killings, said Tuesday he could not explain this.

"I can't," he said. "That's what encouraged me to do research, and now I know it."

Khieu Samphan has published two books since the fall of the Khmer Rouge. His own research did not show that the Khmer Rouge was intent on killing its own people, he said.

"So, they need more research. That is just my own view. I just want to urge Cambodian people to learn more about their own history and do more research on the killing," he said. "I totally understand that almost every family was affected by the killing. That is completely true, but why did that happen?"

"You can put the blame on the Khmer Rouge because they governed the country, but what else besides that?" he continued. "Why did the killing happen? We suffered from all kinds of bad things, trying to escape B-52 bombing, so I mean we came all the way from all kinds of suffering just to kill our own people? That is why I was wondering. Don't just believe anything they say."

Human society is different from "insects," he said, which "do things according to instinct."

"People do not just follow what their leaders said," he said. "They can't just enter a crab hole according to a leader's order. They followed what is right, but not just anything, such as the case of rebellion in Samlot at that time. Why is that?"

The history of the Khmer Rouge needs more research, he said. Historians "got things right on B-52 bombardment, but they did not get the truth about Khmer Rouge mass killings."

The role of Cambodia's army fighting Cambodians "needs to be found out," he said, hinting that researchers had glossed over portions of history. "Unfortunately, researchers did not find that. I don't blame them, as they are foreigners. Instead, I appreciate the fact that they managed to achieve that amount of work. But I just want them to do more research on that."

Asked what principles were used by the Khmer Rouge to govern, Khieu Samphan said only, "law came from the party, and the party came from the struggle. And for the struggle to succeed, we needed people."

Without similar struggle principles, Mao Zedong could not have liberated China, so the principles were good, Khieu Samphan said.

"China would not have existed through today without Mao Zedong's contribution," Khieu Samphan said. "How poor was China in the past? How badly was China insulted by the French and the English? In Shanghai, in French and English homes, at the entrance there was always a sign saying, 'No dogs or Chinese.' And now look at China! Some countries are afraid that China will become a superpower. I guess it's just economically powerful. And now look at Vietnam after its liberation, how fast it developed its economy."

"So, it does not really matter if a country has a communist regime," he continued. "If we talk about Khmers, if we had managed to liberate our country and had smooth reconstruction, even if we endured some suffering, such as starvation, it would have been wrong, but it would have been good."

There were those who considered Cambodians who were "evacuated" from the cities "war victims," he said, "but my research suggested that there was a law decree about that at the time, and even Pol Pot himself at that time again and again said not to consider the evacuated as war victims."

"We need to make sure that we treat good people or hard working people well and those who opposed us accordingly," he said.

"Regarding the killing, suffering, and starvation, I think it was not Pol Pot who caused it," Khieu Samphan said. "He alone could not do it all. Pol Pot was in charge of investigating and arresting important cadre, probably hundreds of people, not thousands. The arrests kept increasing because these cadre had their own networks, conflicts, jealousy. That is why there were extrajudicial killing."

Eventually, he said, an expression emerged from eastern zones: "No gain in keeping, no loss in killing."

"I was just wondering where the words came from, because I never heard of this, even in the meeting of the Central Committee or the Permanent Committee," he said. "So it must have come from those regional leaders…who once lived with the Vietnamese."

Later, he said, he was "shocked" to hear that a starving person could be killed for stealing a yam.

"I did not know that until late 1989," he said, "when a Khmer Rouge soldier told me about it."

Interview with Khieu Samphan After Ieng Sary's Arrest- Part Two

This is the second part of a 4-part interviews with Khieu Samphan, conducted by Mr. Heng Reaksmey of Voice of America Khmer Program , one day after the arrest of Ieng Sary on 12th November. Two hours later he suffered a stroke.

14th November 2007
VOA News
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization

Heng Reaksmey(HR): Mr. Khieu Samphan, up until now, in relation to the hiring of your lawyers, have you chosen any one yet?

Samphan: I have chosen all my lawyers already. My foreign lawyer is Mr. Jacques Verges and my Khmer lawyer is Mr. Say Bory.

HR: Thank you Mr. Khieu Samphan. What do you think the reasons behind the arrests of Mr. Ieng Sary and his wife, Mrs. Ieng Thirith?

Samphan: On this issue I do not dare to say anything because all the cases are different. I wish not to make any comment.

HR: How close did you work with Ieng Sary and Mrs. Ieng Thirith during the Democratic Kampuchea (DK) regime between 1975-1979?

Samphan: My work relations with him was like this. Mr. Ieng Sary was in charge of foreign affairs of the DK regime as well as the foreign affairs of the Party and the state. But I myself was only a president of the presidium and I worked in Office 870. And in Office 870 I have my clear role of what I have to do. I was in charge of commerce and trade accounts, the productions from the communes and the distributions of the productions. This was my first role. Second, I have the role to liaise with His Majesty (Sihanouk) and those Khmer Rouge cadres who had joined our movement since the 18th March 1970's coup d'etat. This role was stated clearly. And in Office 870 Mr. Doeun, alias Soeur Vansi, was the president. And the role of the president of Office 870 was responsible for political affairs. I did not know what the role of political affairs was at that time. But the principle was still the same, that people are only allowed to know about their works. They are not allowed to know, to see or hear about what other people were doing. This was the same in my office- that was Office 870. And when Mr. Doeun was arrested at the end of the regime, when the border disputes (with Vietnam) reached boiling point, Mr. Doeun was arrested. At that time I did not know who was appointed in Mr. Doeun's place. But I was very clear that they did not appoint me in Doeun's place. In the DK regime it doesn't mean that because I have higher qualification than other people that I must be the leader. If I was the president of Office 870 I must be the president of that office since the beginning. Why should they appoint Mr. Doeun to be the president? And after he was arrested I did not know whom they appointed in his place.

But even if I was appointed in Mr. Doeun's place, I'd like to tell you that I need to travel alot because Mr. Doeun's role requires to travel a lot because that role was responsible for political affairs. But when I read the books later I knew that his role was to spy on all cadres marked by the Permanent Committee to be spied on. That role needs to travel a lot. The person need to know all other cadres very well. As for me, I never knew about anything on the grounds. Yes, I had a higher qualification but my role was to liaise with His Majesty (Sihanouk). First I cannot do like Mr. Doeun. Second, as people can see, I have never traveled anywhere. In regard to this you can ask anyone who was in the movement and they will tell you that I have never traveled anywhere during the period of 1975-1979. This is what I wanted to tell you.

So at that time Ieng Sary was in charge of foreign affairs and my role was like what I have just told you. The position of the head of state was idle. But the day to day affairs was carried out by Office 870. So in 1979 we returned to a broad policy of a political unity. From 1970-1975 the KR movement had a policy of uniting all forces, including combining His Majesty's (Sihanouk) forces with the DK forces. But from 1975-1979 they have a policy of creating a socialism, building a socialist society etc. I do not want to describe it here so if you want to know you can read my book which I have described in details.

But after 1979 we returned to a policy of a broad national unity. So when we returned to a policy of national unity, a tripartite coalition, Mr. Ieng Sary was not allowed to continue his role as minister of foreign affairs when the Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea was created, because they need someone who was acceptable to both His Majesty (Sihanouk) and to our friends from the Association of South East Asian Nations and other friendly countries who need to see a new person, a person who has a stance that is acceptable to them because during the three years reign of the DK regime Ieng Sary was the minister of foreign affairs and that regime had brought a very bad reputation so we must change. This was why I was appointed in Ieng Sary's place as a vice-president of the Front in charge of foreign affairs.

But later on, Lady Ieng Thirith, who was minister of Social Affairs of the DK, was appointed in charge of the office of foreign affairs.

(To be continued on part 3 and 4...)

Note: Two hours after this interview Mr. Khieu Samphan suffered a minor stroke. He tried to seek midical treatment in Thailand but was prevented from going there. The next day Hun Sen sent a helicopter to airlift him to hospital in Phnom Penh.

Interview with Khieu Samphan After Ieng Sary's Arrest- Part One

This is the first part of a 4-part interviews with Khieu Samphan (pictured) conducted by Mr. Heng Reaksmey of Voice of America Khmer Program following the arrests of Ieng Sary and his wife, Ieng Thirith on Monday, 12th November 2007.

13th November 2007
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization

Heng Reaksmey(HR): Hello Mr. Khieu Samphan.

Khieu Samphan: Hello, thank you.

HR: Mr. Khieu Samphan, in relations to the fast forward developments of the Khmer Rouge (KR) Tribunal in the last few weeks, do you anticipate that the KR Tribunal will summon you to appear in the near future?

Samphan: In relation to this I did not receive any news. I did not know or hear anything about that, but I heard people said many different things. And especially I have seen a broadcast on CTN TV last night which said that amongst the five KR suspects four have already been arrested. Only one suspect is still free and should be arrested soon. In the broadcast they mentioned my name clearly. I do not feel bad. If the tribunal wants to summon me any time I will go willingly. They do not need to arrest me. They just summon me and I will go. On the other hand, I have already chosen my lawyers. But most importantly, I have my own reasons. For example, the reason why I agreed to be the President of the Presidium of Democratic Kampuchea after Prince Sihanouk resigned in April 1976. So I have my own reasons. Other than that I can give you some more examples if you allow me to say it here.

HR: Please go on.

Samphan: O.K. First I'd like to say that I have my own reasons. I want to say it here so that the public will know and the tribunal can also consider before hand before they proceed with my case. First, why did I agreed to be the President of the Presidium of Democratic Kampuchea? Because at that time I thought that I was not only representing the KR regime, but also representing my whole nation which wanted to be independent and sovereign from America and Vietnam who has the ambition to force Cambodia to join their Indochinese Federation. This was one of the most important reasons that I wanted to tell you. Secondly, I would like to say that there were three people in charge of the Presidium (Permanent Executive Committee). But we never met and we did not have any office in which to work in.

HR: Mr. Khieu Samphan, you said that there were three people who were in charge of the Presidium. Can you tell me right now who those people were?

Samphan: If you want me to say their names I can tell you right now. First, I was the president. Second, Mr. So Phim was the first vice-president. Mr. So Phim was also the secretary (governor) of the Eastern Zone. And third was Mr. Ros Nhim, alias Moul Sambath, who was the second vice-president and he was also the secretary (governor) of the Northwestern Zone. There were three presidents of the Presidium but we never convened any meetings. And we did not have any office or any departments to control. If you want to know more you can ask any surviving members of the KR regime. So this has confirmed that I did not have any powers. My position was only ceremonial, only a symbol or a representation of our nation, including the KR regime, representing our nation that wanted to be independent and sovereign like I have told you earlier.


HR: Thank you, Mr. Khieu Samphan. Up until today, are you scared about the prospect of you facing the tribunal?

Samphan: I did not have anything to fear, like I told you earlier. I have never done anything wrong toward me nation and my people. I never sold my nation. Even one cent I have never stolen from my nation. The only thing that I will do is to tell all about what I have done from 1975 to 1979. I have just told you about the structure of the presidium. I even can tell you one more thing that some people said that they cannot believe that I did not know what had happened during the KR regime. I read in the newspapers that many people cannot believe why a head of state did not know anything. This is what I wanted to tell you also.

HR: Go ahead.

Samphan: Because in the KR regime they have their own rules. During the Democratic Kampuchea regime, those who were evacuated from Phnom Penh knew about those rules. Their rules stated that people only need to know about their own jobs and roles. You don't need to know about other people's jobs. The rules at that time were very clear. People at every level must observe those rules. It doesn't mean that because you are a head of state you don't need to observe those rules? Those rules also applied to me, so I never wanted to know about other people's jobs and other people were too scared to tell me about anything. And I only stayed in one place and never travelled anywhere so I knew nothing about what had happened. This is what I wanted to tell you.

(To be continued on part 2, 3 and 4...)

Pre-Stroke Khieu Samphan Defends Role in KR

By Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Original report from Phnom Penh
14 November 2007

Listen Heng Reaksmey Q&A with Khieu Samphan, Part II

[Editor's note: Three hours before he suffered an apparent stroke Tuesday, Khieu Samphan gave a 20-minute phone interview to VOA Khmer. He was taken to a Phnom Penh hospital Wednesday, and has not talked to the media since his arrival. What follows is part two of a four-part series detailing Tuesday's interview.]

For Part One, Click here.

Khieu Samphan confirmed Monday he had hired French attorney Jacques Verges and said he was unaware of the activities of Nuon Chea and Ieng Sary, who both now face atrocity crimes charges and are in tribunal detention.

Asked what he thought of the arrests of Ieng Sary and Ieng Thirith, Khieu Samphan declined to comment, but elaborated on their roles during Democratic Kampuchea.

"Ieng Sary was responsible for the regime's foreign affairs, dealing with both the party and foreign countries," Khieu Samphan said. "As for me, I worked as the head of state and my first responsibility in the regime was to deal with local and international trade, such as pricing goods or produce made by the community, the sale and the distribution of those products.

"My second responsibility was to work with the king and some other officials joining the regime since 1970 coup," he said, referring to then king Norodom Sihanouk. "That was stated very clearly in the job description back then."

Khieu Samphan also said Monday he traveled little under the regime, and most of the regime's work was undertaken by others in Department 870.

The department planned daily activities, handled political affairs and investigated front-line Khmer Rouge cadre.

His section was under Department 870, but he only knew about his job, trade and commerce, he said.

"You can investigate that among the Khmer Rouge leaders," he said. "Did I ever travel anywhere from 1975 to 1979? As I told you, Ieng Sary was responsible for foreign affairs, and I was the head of state, but the daily work [of others] was at Department 870. The department had its own policy. In 1979, the policy was broader, and [the department] joined with Democratic Kampuchea and the king. From 1975 they established a communist regime for whatever benefits I don't want to mention; you can read my book."