លោក​សំ បូរិន្ទ​ត្រូវ​បាន​ចងចាំ​ថា​ជា​អ្នក​ជួយ​បណ្តុះ​បណ្តាល​អ្នក​សារព័ត៌មាន​

លោកសំ បូរិន ជាមួយ​នឹង​អតីតឯកអគ្គរាជទូតសហរដ្ឋ​អាមេរិក​នៅភ្នំពេញ លោកឆាល រ៉េយ (Charles A. Ray)

Sam Borin

ម៉ែន​ គឹមសេង
29 សីហា 2012
Voice of America

រដ្ឋ​ធានី​វ៉ាស៊ីនតោន៖ ថ្ងៃ​សៅរ៍​​កន្លង​មក​គឺ​ជា​បុណ្យ​ខួប​១០០​ថ្ងៃ​របស់​សព​លោក​សំ បូរិន្ទ​ដែល​បាន​ប្រារព្ធ​ធ្វើ​នៅ​វត្ត​ពុទ្ធិ​ការ៉ាម​ក្នុង​រដ្ឋ​ម៉ារីឡែន។
​
លោក​សំ បូរិន្ទ​អតីត​អ្នក​កាសែត​ដ៏​ឆ្នើម​​​និង​មាន​ឥទ្ធិពល​ម្នាក់​បាន​ធ្វើ​មរណកម្ម​ដោយ​សារ​ជំងឺ​មហារីក​ថ្លើម​កាលពី​ថ្ងៃ​ទី​១១ ​ខែ​ឧសភា​ឆ្នាំ​នេះ​ក្នុង​ជន្មាយុ​៥៨ឆ្នាំ​​​​នៅ​គេហដ្ឋាន​របស់​លោក​នៅ​សហរដ្ឋ​អាមេរិក។

អ្នក​កាសែត​រូបនេះ​ត្រូវ​បាន​គេ​ចងចាំ​ថា​ជា​អ្នកចូលរួម​ចំណែក​ជំរុញ​ដល់​សេរីភាព​សារព័ត៌មាន​តាម​រយៈ​​ការ​ជួយ​ឧបត្ថម្ភ​ដល់​ការបណ្តុះ​បណ្តាល​អ្នក​សារព័ត៌មាន​ជាច្រើន​នាក់។​

អតីត​អ្នក​យក​ព័ត៌មាន​វិទ្យុ​អាស៊ី​សេរី​ទទួល​មរណភាព

លោក សំ បូរិន្ទ(ឆ្វេង​)ភរិយានិង​កូន​ប្រុស​ស្រី​របស់​លោក​។ រូបថត សហ​ការី

Monday, 14 May 2012 12:04
សូ វិសាល
The Phnom Penh Post

ភ្នំពេញៈ អតីត​អនុ​ប្រធាន​វិទ្យុ​អាស៊ី​សេរី ផ្នែក​ខេមរ​ភាសា ដែល​មាន​វោហារសាស្ត្រ​ប៉ិន​ប្រសប់ ក្នុង​ការ​ធ្វើ​សម្ភាស ធ្វើ​ឲ្យ​អ្នក​ស្តាប់​ជក់​ចិត្ត​ដិត​អារម្មរណ៍​យ៉ាង​ខ្លាំង​នោះ​ បាន​ទទួល​មរណភាព​ហើយ កាល​ពី​ថ្ងៃ​សោរ៍ នៅ​ក្នុង​ជន្មាយុ ៦០ ឆ្នាំ​។

លោក សំ បូរិន្ទ ត្រូវ​បាន​អ្នក​និយម​ស្តាប់​វិទ្យុ​អាស៊ី​សេរី ស្ងើច​សរសើរ​ ដោយ​សារ​តែ​វោហារសាស្ត្រ ដ៏​ប៉ិនប្រសប់​របស់​លោក​ ក្នុង​ការ​ធ្វើ​សម្ភាស និង​សេចក្តី​រាយការណ៍​ផ្សេង​ៗ ជា​ពិសេស​សេចក្តី​រាយការណ៍ ទាក់ទង​ទៅ​នឹង​ការ​អប់រំ តាម​បែប​ព្រះ​ពុទ្ធសាសនា ចាប់​តាំង​ពី​អំឡុង​ឆ្នាំ ២០០០ រហូត​ដល់​ចុង​ឆ្នាំ ២០១០។ លោក​បាន​ទទួល​មរណភាព កាល​ពី​ថ្ងៃ​សៅរ៍ នៅ​ឯ​គេហដ្ឋាន របស់​លោក ​នា​ទីក្រុង ស៊ីលវើស្ព្រីង ក្នុង​រដ្ឋ​ម៉ារីឡែន សហរដ្ឋ​អាមេរិក ដោយ​រោគាពាធ។

បុរស​សម្បុរ​ខ្មៅ​ស្រអែម ខ្ពស់​ស្រឡះ ដែល​ធ្លាប់​រស់​នៅ​ជំរំ​ឫទ្ធីសែន តាម​បណ្តោយ​ព្រំ​ដែន​ខ្មែរ​ថៃ កាល​ពី​សម័យ​សង្គ្រាម​រូប​នេះ បាន​ទៅ​បន្ត​ការ​សិក្សា​ផ្នែក​អនុបណ្ឌិត ​រដ្ឋបាល​នៅ​សាកល​វិទ្យាល័យ ហាវើត សហរដ្ឋ​អាមេរិក កាល​ពី​អំឡុង​ឆ្នាំ ១៩៩៩ ហើយ​ក្រោយ​ពេល​បញ្ចប់​ការ​សិក្សា លោក​បាន​ចូល​បម្រើ​ការ​ នៅ​វិទ្យុ​អាស៊ី​សេរី ក្នុង​ឆ្នាំ ២០០០។

សាររំលែកទុក្ខមរណភាព លោក សម បូរិន្ទ របស់សហព័ន្ធខ្មែរកម្ពុជាក្រោមប្រចាំអ៊ឺរុប

ខ្ញុំព្រះករុណា-ខ្ញុំបាទទើបតែបានទទួលដំណឹងយ៉ាងក្រៀមក្រំជាទីបំផុតអំពីមរណភាពនៃ

លោក សម បូរិន្ទ ដែលជាអ្នកស្នេហាជាតិម្នាក់ដ៏គំរូក្នុងការតស៊ូរដើម្បីការពារសិទ្ធិ ខ្មែរគ្រប់

បែបយ៉ាងតាមផ្នែកសាពត៌មាន ជាពិសេសនៅពេលចុងក្រោយនេះ ជាស្ថានិកវិទ្យុផ្សាយ

សំឡេង “ខ្មែរពិភពលោក” ដែលខ្មែរស្នេហាជាតិក្នុងពិភពលោក ចូលចិត្តស្តាប់ដោយយក

ចិត្តទុកដាក់ជាទីបំផុត ។

ក្នុងនាមសហគម និងសហព័ន្ធខ្មែរកម្ពុជាក្រោមអ៊ឺរុប ខ្ញុំសូមចូលរួមកាន់ទុក្ខដ៏ជ្រាលជ្រៅជាទី

បំផុត ជាមួយគ្រួសារសព ហើយសូមបួងសួងឲ្យវិញ្ញាណក្ខ័ន្ធសពលោក សម បូរិន្ទ បានទៅ

ចាប់បដិសន្ធិ ក្នុងសុខគតិភពនៃឋានសួគ៌ថាននិព្វាន កុំបីឃ្លៀងឃ្លាតឡើយ ។

ដំណឹងនេះសូមប្រគេន និងជូនជ្រាបជាព័ត៌មានដល់ញាតិមិត្តជិតឆ្ងាយនៃសព ។

ពីខ្ញុំ ថាច់-វៀន

លោក សម បូរិន្ទ អតីតនាយករងនៃវិទ្យុអាស៊ីសេរីភាសាខ្មែរ 

និងជាសហស្ថាបនិក វិទ្យុខ្មែរពិភពលោក បានស្លាប់នៅថ្ងៃ

ទី ១១ ខែឧសភា ឆ្នាំ ២០១២ ។ 

Je viens d’apprendre avec profonde tristesse du décès de notre ami, Monsieur SAM BORIN, un patriote journaliste modèle qui lutte inlassablement pour défendre les causes nationales. Dans cette dernière instance, M. SAM BORIN, est aussi membre fondateur de la Radio Khmère du Monde dont l’émission a chéri l’attention des auditeurs khmers patriotes du monde.

Au nom de la Communauté Khmer Krom et de la FKK-Europe, je présente mes Profondes Condoléances Attristées à la Famille du Défunt et souhaite que l’âme de Monsieur SAM BORIN repose en paix dans le monde du Nirvana.

Cette information tient lieu de faire part à tous les Amis et Connaissances du défunt.

Avec profonds regrets,

Vien Thach

Prey Nokor News 

Sam Borin trust fund Appeal

KI-Media Note: Mr. Sam Borin was a former reporter for Radio Free Asia

Our friend, Sam Borin, has been battling liver cancer for the past year. He has been under the care of the oncology medical team at Georgetown Hospital. The doctors told him last month that there is nothing left they can do to halt the spread of this disease. If he is to get better, it will because of his amazing courage and those mysteries the doctors don’t understand. We have hope he will return to health.

Borin has chosen to be cared for by Hospice at home. He is mostly pain free and in good spirits. Each day is a gift because he is surrounded by his wonderful family: his wife, Samen Sar, his daughter, Romany, and his three sons Ramman, Borom and Sorim.

Friends have set up a trust at Bank of America to honor Borin’s work and life. The donations will be used for expenses not covered by Medical Insurance. Any money not used for end of life expenses will go for scholarships to students from Kampong Chhnang, Borin’s home province, to attend the University of Phnom Penh. To receive a scholarship, the student must be an orphan or from a poor family. The Maryknolls at Phnom Penh University, Education Department will administer the Scholarships.

If you would like to contribute to this trust, please write your check to: The Sam Borin Trust and mail it to:

Anne Dykstra, Trustee

2620 Major Ave North or

Golden Valley, Minnesota, 55422, U.S.A

or

Samen Sar (Wife)

3901 Palmira Lane

Silver Spring, Maryland 20906, U.S.A.

If you wish, your contribution can be electronically transferred to:

Name of Bank: Bank of America
Address: 13711 Connecticut Ave
Silver Spring, Maryland 20906
Routing and Transit Number: 052001633
Account Number: 446025300705
Beneficiary: The Sam Borin Trust
Trustee: Anne H Dykstra, Trustee (former Head, Education, Unicef, Cambodia)
Trustee Address: 2620 Major Ave N
Golden Valley, MN 5542
Should you wish to write Sam Borin here is his contact information, please copy his wife, Samen Sar so that she can read your message to Borin:
samborin@yahoo.com or  samen55@yahoo.com

If you have any questions, do not hesitate to contact me.

Your kind consideration and response to Sam Borin’s news is greatly appreciated by Sam Borin and his family.

Warm regards,


Anne Dykstra, Trustee
Sam Borin Trust
ahdykstra@yahoo.com

Sam Borin fired from RFA

Saturday, October 10, 2009
KI-Media

Sam Borin, a reporter for RFA Khmer Service, was fired, DAP-news reported today. With the previous firing of 6 RFA reporters and employees, Sam Borin is the seventh RFA employee who has been fired recently. Sam Borin is well known for his series of interviews with Professor Keng Vannsak, including the one in which Prof. Keng Vannsak was questioning the origin of King Jayavarman VII. The Cambodia Daily reported on 09 October that Soy Sopheap, the owner of DAP-news sent a letter to US Ambassador Carol Rodley, asking her to intervene on behalf of four RFA employees fired at the end of September. John Estrella, RFA Director for External Relations and Communications, sent an e-mail attachment to The Cambodia Daily’s inquiry on these firings stating: “In a continuing effort to produce valuable, high-quality broadcasting, Radio Free Asia will on occasion making staffing changed to further this goal. All decisions are made to preserve the integrity of our programming and to improve the service to our audience, while respecting and honoring our contractual agreements.”

DAP-news reported also that RFA did not send its representative to discuss with the Cambodian ministry of Labor regarding potential illegal firing of former employees. RFA informed the ministry of Labor that it did not gathered sufficient documents to provide clarification to the ministry. DAP indicated that a source claimed that San Suwidh, the 6th RFA employee fired, and Sam Borin were fired because they criticized the new RFA Khmer service direction led by Kem Sos and Sam Poly, his deputy.

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Three

Nuon Chea and his grandson

This is the third of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: So you are saying that the victory of the Khmer Rouge movement was a victory of the people’s revolutionary struggle?

Chea: Yes, that’s right. It was the struggle of the people. It was not the Democratic Kampuchea alone who achieved the victory. Democratic Kampuchea was only a drop of water, I was only a drop of water in that victory. But the main forces were the farmers and the poor peasants who have united in their struggle to achieve that victory. And during that time His Majesty (Sihanouk) had also played a very important role too because he was the one who had appealed to the general population to go to the jungle to join the resistance fighters in fighting against the Lon Nol cliques. That was the most important mobilisation of the movement. So our resistance movement have grown very big and strong. At the grassroots level we have the farmers and peasants, the workers and the monks who had played a very important role. So the victory was achieved by a national movement headed by His Majesty (Sihanouk), not just the Democratic Kampuchea alone who achieved it. At that time we had a lot of intellectuals coming to join us but some of them cannot endure the jungle life and returned back the government side. That’s normal because life as the resistance fighters were not meant to be an easy life.

Borin: You have mentioned about His Majesty (Sihanouk). I wanted to know that when he was toppled in a coup d’etat he was overseas. Is that right?

Chea: He was overseas. He was travelling home via Russia.

Borin: I would like to know that when His Majesty joined the Democratic Kampuchea movement, did he joined by himself or was there any person who had convinced him to join?

Chea: From what I knew there were two reasons behind his decision to join the resistance. At that time Saloth Sar travelled to Hanoi. Another thing was that His Majesty was also a nationalist. Secondly, the Chinese and the Soviet Union had decided to support him. But the decision to join was his own. No one convinced him to join us. Everything depended on ourselves. Even if there was an outsider who try to convince us at the end it was left to ourselves.

Borin: It was true that it was his own decision but the Vietnamese, the Chinese and leaders such as Saloth Sar and so on, have they tried to make contact with him?

Chea: The Vietnamese and the Chinese have contacted him straight away. As far as I can remember Pham Van Dong went to see Chou Enlai in Peking (Beijing). He went to consult with His Majesty and told him that he has to join the struggle and become the head of the resistance movement. This history is very complex and most foreigners don‘t know about it. If we write a book it would be a very thick book.

Borin: I knew that you will have to go to the temple shortly, but I wish to ask you a few more questions in relation to the religion, especially Buddhism because from what you have said in the past and in your spiritual belief you seemed to be a very religious person. But the people have accused the Democratic Kampuchea regime of trying to destroy religion, especially Buddhism and our culture. How do you feel about those accusations?

Chea: They are right but they are also wrong to a certain extent because those who had joined the revolution did not understand about Buddhism. What is Buddhism and what is in Buddhism? They are Religious Materialism, Religious Selflessness, Religious Protocol and Religious Laws. We must combine religion with religious laws, knowledge and religious practices. We must not talk about religion, about religious protocol only. We can practise religion but that must be in comparable to the livelihood of the people. But what was most important was what’s inside our heart. That’s Nirvana. What is Nirvana? It is peace in our mind, the 4 precepts of Empathy, Compassion, the Middle Way and Forgiveness. I never see anybody practised these precepts. People only go to the temple just for the sake of going to the temple. So during our regime there were extremist elements inside our regime who have gone too far. Our society at that time has changed to become a communal society. It was a society where all the people, including the Buddhist monks, have to change their ways of thinking and their ways of life. That is not to say that we have legislated to ban people from becoming monks. At that time we have debated about this issue as well. We have come to the conclusion that we are at war so we must not worry about religion yet. We must be more concerned about farming first as agriculture is the basis of our religion. So we did not have time to think about religion because we were busy thinking about looking after the wounded people and about the medical care of the people because at that time we were fighting a big war. I do not believe that our communists wanted to destroy the religion but there were some extremist elements inside our party who reported to us that all the monks have left the monkhood voluntarily. I didn’t believe them but we had to allow things be like that so we can restore it in a reformed model. That’s what had happened. But please do not think that communists do not believe in religion.

What I said were the truths. During the war whenever the American planes bombed us heavily we always prayed to the spirit of our fathers and mothers. We always prayed and sprayed the earthly dusts on our head, we prayed to the Buddha, we prayed to the Dharma and we prayed to the monks for them to protect us. So we communists believe in religion too but in a different way. We were not like people from the previous regimes who just prayed in front of the Buddha statue but inside them was empty. I wish to re-iterate here against that god is inside us, the Dharma is inside us. We cannot just chant the prayer out loud but inside of us we did not have any spiritual connections.

A few days ago there were two monks from Prey Veng province who were accompanied by two priests who came around to collect their alms and to raise funds to build their temple. I asked them what is the meaning of Meakha Buchea (alms giving ceremony)? They cannot answer me. And I asked again what does the word Buddha means? Still they cannot answer me.

I said oh God! Our Buddhism will disappear soon. So I agreed with the words of the Buddha who uttered that “my religion will disappear because of the actions of my followers”. Nowadays, many Buddhists went to the temple because they wanted to pray to the Buddha to give the right lottery numbers, not because they wanted to rid themselves of greed, bad intentions and angers. And some Buddhist monks have behaved inappropriately such as performing love spells, giving the so-called sacred waters and providing lottery numbers etc. That’s religious misconduct.

We all have to consider about this issue together. What I see to day is that we have a motto of Nation, Religion and King. But why at the village level we didn’t practise the five precepts (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t drink, don’t commit adultery and don’t gamble). If we all practise these five precepts I think it will be very, very good. Today I see that some monks can’t even uphold the five precepts principle let alone the 270 precepts that they are required to uphold. So we have to understand all of these and when we understood all of these then we will realise that we cannot allow our religion to deteriorate anymore or we will be sinned.

Borin: I wish to go back to my question. In your capacity as the second in command of the Party and as a person who used to be a Buddhist monk. We saw that the reform of Buddhism under your regime was too extreme which has led to the destruction and ultimately the abolition of religion at that time. Do you agree with me that the Khmer Rouge regime had destroyed the Buddhist religion?

Chea: I do not agree with this assessment. We have reformed to rid of the old way in order to build a new way. We did not destroy it permanently. We only got rid of the bad elements in that religion and kept the good ones. Buddhism is not like Hinduism. What is the Buddhist Puritanism? What is Idealism in Buddhism? It is Nirvana. What is the principle of Nirvana? It is to rid yourselves of the bad deeds and do good deeds and have a pure mind. Everyday one has to know what are the causes of sufferings and find the ways to rid yourselves of all those sufferings by following the eight paths of the Buddha which I forgot what they are. But if we follow these paths it will lead to good things.

In our society in the past we believe in the four gifts of alms. But if there is no Buddhist virtues to support those gifts they will yield nothing. To achieve good deeds we don’t just consider about the four gifts alone but we must lead the people to achieve peace such as during the time of the god Ariyak Metrey. When it comes to god Ariyak Metrey all the people will just smile and become friendly toward each other when they saw god Ariyak Metrey because we all share the sufferings together, comfort together, become old together, get sick together and die together. So there is no reason to hate each other. Even I waged a war against the Americans and the Vietnamese but I never harboured any hatred against these people. I loved them very much. But I hated those aggressors who invaded other countries. So we have to differentiate these two kinds of people. The same with the Buddhist religion. I did not hate Buddhism but I don’t like those monks who do not follow the teachings of the Buddha. For example, some monks are wondering around asking and collecting donations in an anarchic way. If they still do like this our Buddhism will disappear.

Nowadays, not just the students who do not know how to show respect to the monks. Even our government officials don’t know how to show respect to the monks.

One day, a long time back, I went to the temple I saw one government official came to the temple. The monks asked him to chant a pray but he couldn’t do it. So even some government officials cannot even chant a prayer. So the people now practise Buddhism only as a lip service. We must practise Buddhism from our heart, from our flesh, from our blood and from our bones. If we can do like this our Buddhism will thrive.

(To be continued in parts 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Four

Nuon Chea making a speech during the Khmer Rouge regime era

This is the fourth of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: When the Khmer Rouge carried out the reforms, did many people agreed with the reforms?

Chea: I believe that there were some. But those people most of them were those who thought that “we have gone too far with the religious reforms”. See? That’s what they thought. I once met a foreign aristocrat, but I won’t say what his nationality is. He told me that a monk cannot lead the revolution (communism). I told him I disagree with his view. Any monks who adhere to Buddhism can lead a revolution better. It is true that the revolution (communism) and Buddhism has a slight difference from each other. They are not much different from each other regarding the principle of “violence” and the “ non-violence”. Buddhism favours spiritual reform and revolution/communism favours social reform.

They are not different from each other if we know how to combine the two. We must overcome our greed, bad intentions and angers first before we can overcome over other people. No any other victory is better than the victory over ourselves. If we still have bad intentions and angers and get drunk everyday, how can we lead? We have two, three, four or even five wives, hordes lots of money, cars and materialistic things etc. these are the things that we have to overcome ourselves with.

Borin: There were some people in some sections of the society, including myself, who believed that those Khmer Rouge leaders who used to be a Buddhist monks were the ones who killed more people than those who had never become a monk. What do think about this observation?

Chea: No, it is not true. Those people just say like that without any basis. I believe that we must balance. But sometimes we received pressures or influences from foreigners who do not believe in Buddhism because it is a complex religion. All religions, including Buddhism and Christianity, taught people to do good things. It is the people who commit bad things, not religions. We must understand about this point clearly.

Borin: But people have noticed that those who had spent life in the monastery are those who had become cruel killers than those who had never become a monk. Have you noticed like that?

Chea: No, it is not like that. I saw those people were like any other people but they always have compassion in them. Those who killed were mostly former thieves or ex-soldiers who were ruthless people. Before we have the “Red Soldiers” or the “Black Soldiers” who have become jungle robbers and killed each other mercilessly. When the Issarak Movements were formed they joined those movements and when the revolutionary movements were formed they came to joined us. Those people were so anarchic.

Borin: Were those people used to be monks?Chea: Some used to be monks. Some have never become monks and some became Buddhist monks only for a short period of time.

Borin: One point that I would like to raise is that Saloth Sar used to be a monk. And the other point is that he used to be an engineer in technical field. Is that so?

Chea: He was an electrical engineer.

Borin: He was an electrical engineer. People consider that those who studied this field were those who were not smart students, that’s my first point. The second point is people used to say that Saloth Sar was a bombastic person. Why did the People’s Revolutionary Party of Cambodia chose him to be the most important leader of the Democratic Kampuchea regime?

Chea: He used to tell me that he was a shy and a timid person who is scared to engage in arguments and fighting. He said that they always sent him to solve problems with difficult persons who had come to join our Party. He said that he was scared to deal with those people. He has a soft heart, not a “playboy” as portrayed by some people. But he was a disciplined person who become strict with himself or even with his family. That’s normal.

But he had never been a drunkard, a gambler or anything like that. He was a good person who has a very clean image. That’s why he had tried to build a good life for himself. He had told me that he decided to become a monk when his mother became sick. His mother asked him to clean her bottom when she became sick. So he thought to himself that may be his mother wanted him to pay back the gratitude and he did it willingly. When he came back he told me about this with tears rolling down his cheeks. So he was a very grateful person.

But he liked to say like this:” I hate feudalism more than colonialism because I do not like to bow (to the king)”. and he used to tell me that he was always scared of the Arabic guards. In the old days most guards such as the guards of the cinema, theatres and café etc., were Arabic people. As you can see Saloth Sar was a timid person who was concerned about other people’s feelings. So those people whom he cannot reform and educate he will let other people try to educate them instead. He was not a person who was always wanted to win or have his ways all the time but a person who has his reasons, who speaks with reasons.

Borin: So these are the reasons why many members of the Party love him?

Chea: Yes. He was a person who speaks with reasons and he was a polite person too.

Borin: Polite in what sense?

Chea:Polite in the sense that he was a person who compromised all the time, not a person who wanted his ways all the time.

Borin:I know that you need to go to the temple right now so thank you. I wanted to wish you good health and best wishes.

Chea: I have learnt a lot from you through your questions. If we have some one who ask us questions all the time it makes us think. But if no one to ask us anything we don’t think about anything. And when someone questioned us we will always have the reasons. And when we have time I would like to talk about the true nature of how the Communist Party of Cambodia was created. This is a core and key issue. I wish to tell you how was the Party led, how it had become strong and then weak. This is a very important issue. If you know about this point you know everything. You will see who was good and who was bad. I said this not because I wanted to bad-mouth my party but because I wanted to reveal it to serve as a lesson for the next generations to learn.

You know, even if after I died things cannot be changed. You know, time is short and I am not very healthy as well so I have to try to reveal as much as I can before I died. One more thing I wanted to tell you: I seemed to like you a lot. Some people who wanted to interview me but came with a bad intention so I refused to talk to them. I like people who are sincere. I don’t like deceitful people.

You can ask anything you wanted to ask. Some people pretended that they come from Radio Free Asia and just wanted to visit me. When I knew their real intentions I refused to grant them the interview. They have to tell me the truth so I can tell them exactly what they wanted to know. If we talk about the Buddhist teachings of Dharma we are talking about the truth. There should be no diplomatic talk but rather they can quiz me in a polite manner. Some journalists interviewed me like they are interrogating me but I ignored their questions. Just ask in a sincere manner, do not need to interrogate me and I will answer you in a truthful way. Take what you think is right and leave what you think is wrong for later days.

I tell you the truth. I don’t consider the court as an adjudicator. I consider it as a battleground between the (Cambodian) nationalist resistance fighters and the international community. So the upcoming Khmer Rouge Tribunal is a battleground between the Cambodian nationalists and the international community.

That’s why my morale now is very high. If there is no Khmer Rouge Tribunal the truth will never be revealed and people will vilify, defame and prejudge that the Khmer Rouge are cruel people who had committed genocide. So to tell you the truth I recognise this Tribunal but as a battleground, not only for myself but for all those patriots who had sacrificed their lives. So I wish you all the best.

(To be continued in parts 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Five

From right to left: Nuon Chea (second), Ieng Sary and Son Sen

This is the fifth of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: The other day you have owed me some answers. You mentioned that to understand everything I must understand about the political parties first.

Chea: I wanted to explain to you too because there are different kinds of political parties. Some parties were formed just to serve some individuals’ political ambitions and some parties were formed to serve the interests of the country. The Revolutionary Party of Cambodia was formed to serve the interests of the country because its aim was important. Anyone who joined it must be willing to sacrifice for the Party because this Party was not created for the purpose of fighting for power or any political interests but for the true interests of the nation. So I am very proud of this Party even though we have committed some mistakes because making mistakes are normal things for any leaders.

Borin: In your opinion what were the main reasons why mistakes were made by your Party?

Chea: I will tell you at a later time because it has its special characteristics. You must know about its special characteristics in order to know about its political platforms. I wanted the people to take those mistakes as a lesson for the future political aspirants to learn about past mistakes. But we have to talk face to face in order for us to debate the issue in a sincere and frank manner because Radio Free Asia is a very popular radio which, in the past, has broadcast very controversial programs about land disputes, about family disputes and about teachers’ disputes with the government. But as a politician I think that those disputes are normal things that we must face and solve everyday.

I have prepared myself that if one day I will see you face to face I will tell you about the birth of our party, about how it has transformed itself, about how it liberated itself from the influence of our neighbour. About its struggle, about how we Khmers was able to build ourselves, about whether this party was formed by itself or was it born out of other political parties. I can only tell you some aspects of it because all the party’s memberships came from different sources. Some came from France, some came from Thailand, some came from Indochina and some came from Vietnam combining together like we are making salad. I don’t want to compare ourselves to salad but that’s the real truth about the different influences brought to our party from different people.

So the agreements in policies are the problems because people from Europe were influenced by European ways of thinking, people from Asia were influenced by Asian ways of thinking and Vietnam has spread its influences to us as well. So past political unity and political agreements are a problem and very difficult to achieve. So all the leaders have to really compromise for the interests of solidarity and our nation. And the Communist Party of Cambodia was not a universal party. It was a true nationalist party but was not an internationalist or a universal party as was considered by some sections of the people.

We were an internationalist in the sense that we build up our party in order to contribute to the progress of the world. This is my view. We did not need an outside help. We can do things by ourselves so we must do it by ourselves in order to strengthen the quality and the capacity of our party.

This was the goal in the creation of our party and we have committed some mistakes. But why did we commit those mistakes? Because our party was a young party which has just been created not long ago. It’s true that it was formed in 1951 but it was not a pure party. It has only become a true independent party from 1960. So since 1960 it has become a true Khmer party which I really admired because it was not a satellite party to any other party anymore.

This is the reasons why I wanted to write about the party as a separate history. I can write it with accuracies because I can remember most of it. But I will write it as a national history. This is a very important issue. The party is a core. If it leads us toward the wrong directions we will face defeat. If it leads us toward the right directions we will achieve victory. The reasons the Chinese Communist Party and the Communist Party of Vietnam were strong because the Chinese Communist Party was formed since 1920 and the Communist Party of Vietnam was formed since 1930. And why did other big political parties like the Indonesian party collapse? This is what I wanted to experiment because other political parties, such as the Thai (Communist?) Party, the Burmese (Communist?) Party and the Philippines (Communist?) Party, have not thrived. And our Communist Party of Cambodia was different because it has just been formed for only 5 years but has defeated the Americans.

So if we wanted to know the truth we have to leave it to the next generations to judge us. We don’t want them to learn from us but we wanted them to judge us by themselves. This is my wish. So as you can see the Party is a core. So if the Party does not know how to lead us then we would face problems. But in the past we have tried hard to lead, both in the wrong and right directions, with compromise and with patience. Unlike the European political parties where they debate each other by banging the tables. We have made compromises by following the Buddha’s teachings of Dharma in order to build our nation.

I have to combine modernisation and Buddhism but I take Buddhism as a base. As for modernisation it will have to be done according to the situation. This is what I wanted to write a long time ago but I cannot do it by myself. I need someone to help me do this because I cannot remember everything that happened. Leading the party and the country since 1950 to present time is not an easy task. If we want the country to progress we have to make our population reform their ways of thinking in order to survive peacefully and prosperously. But I think that at the present time there are people who still have the ancient and the primitive ways of thinking.

So how can our nation progress? Even though we have not progressed materialistically, our thoughts and ideas must be progressive. Nature cannot be changed easily. We need 50 to 60 or even 100 years to change our ways of thinking. New thoughts and ideas help society to move forward because thoughts are the bases of modernisation and our intelligence is the master of everything. So I am still thinking whether to write a book or not because of my poor health and also my mind is not as active as before. What I have just told you are the truths. One day if you can endure the lifestyle I live you can come and stay at my house for one or two days, we have lunches and dinners together and we can start to discuss things. But you have to put up with us because our house has lots of cats and dogs and young kids. You are welcomed any time.

(To be continued in parts 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part One

Brother No. 2 (2nd from left) and Brother No. 1 (right)

This is the first of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Nuon Chea: Please ask whatever you want to know.

Sam Borin: In fact I have a lot of important questions to ask you. You have told me about the reasons of your actions because you believe that everything has its reasons and causes. I want to know the reasons why you joined the Communist Party of Cambodia. At that time what drove you to join the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Chea: I was born during the period in which Cambodia was under the French Protectorate. The French Protectorate was established in 1863 and I was born in 1926. I was born and raised during the French Protectorate and the feudal regime. That didn’t drive my nationalistic sentiment much but I hated injustices. I saw the rich oppressed the poor. The public servants oppressed the rural people. And I saw the district chiefs imposed heavy taxes on the poor. In short, the injustices have become a cancer which has spread to every level of our society. These were my main concerns. In fact I didn’t have much interest about Cambodia’s independence but I hated injustices. That’s what drove me to my struggle against the French.

The second reason was that one day I passed by a crematorium and saw a burnt and charred corpse. Immediately I felt so sad. And when I got home I told my grandmother that I wanted to become a Buddhist monk. But at that time I was still very young. My grandmother didn’t object to me becoming a monk but said that I should think carefully before I made my decision.

So at that time I had two choices. One was to opt for a political life in order to liberate my country. And second was to opt for a monastic life. But if I become a monk I will never leave the monastic life because I have always had true interests in the Buddha’s teachings since I was young. I always feel sympathetic toward old people. In short I have religious instinct. And what formed the first base of my conviction was the Cambodian nation and my Buddhist belief. So when the French ceded Battambang (his home province) to the Japanese occupation forces ( which meant that Battambang was effectively put under Thai control) I had to go to study in Thailand. When I was studying in Thailand, in the Buddhist era of 2485 (in about 1940-41), I saw that Thailand at that time was relatively free and democratic. But it was not totally democratic. I did see some injustices such as rich people oppressing the poor people etc. And that made me more concerned.

Before, I thought that Thailand was independent and a just society but I have seen that it was the same as Cambodia. So I decided to find people who have similar understandings as me. At that time I stayed at the temple and received advice from the Buddhist monks there. I have to attend a religious sermon once a week. If anyone missed the sermons 4 times he will be kicked out of the temple. So we lived a really disciplined life. And all the monks were highly educated and highly regarded. That made me more interested in Buddhism.

But in the Thai society, Buddhism and state affairs were intermingled. At that time I have not enrolled at the university yet. I was still studying at a high school. And when I finished high school I enrolled at Thamasat University. The professors there were highly qualified and they have always taught us how to love the people and to always serve the people. Most of the professors at the university held doctorate degrees and most of them came from France or Germany. And the rector of the university was Luang Pradit.

Laung Pradit was accused of being a communist when he tried to reform the political system of the country. He had to escape to France for a while. So as you can see there were some progressive people and there also were some non-progressive people who have always persecuted the progressive people. So up to that time I understood more about politics. And my nationalism was by then progressing a bit by bit. So as you can see I my nationalistic sentiment did not happen overnight.

At that time there was a Korean War. And at that time I had an opportunity to read communist books and newspapers such as the “People’s newspaper” etc. The “People’s newspaper” was a communist newspaper. The newspaper always informed its readers that the Communist Party had always helped the people to liberate their countries from foreign colonial rule. In that book there was a cartoon drawing which depicted Vietnam, Laos and Thailand planting the trees and liberating their countries together. And that made me more interested in politics because it was one of my options but my first and foremost option was always a monastic life.

Because of what I have seen I have decided to join the Youth Movement of the Thai Democratic Party. I was in charge of social affairs such as organising anti-dictatorship activities including organising meetings, printing and distributing pamphlets until I have grasped deep understanding of things. But at that time I had mixed emotions. At that time I was in love but my political emotions had taken over my love.

In fact, in the monk’s sermons he always advised us that when we see a girl we must not judge her by her look only. At that time all the girls I have seen were all beautiful to me but I never dare to do anything inappropriate to them. Besides I was poor as well.

When I graduated from the university it was during World War II. And during World War II the Japanese dropped bombs on Thailand. I saw that it was really unjust. At that time I have worked in many places because I passed all the exams. In Thailand I have no one whom I can look up to for help but I did pass all the exams by myself. First I worked in the government warehouse in charge of the accounts. After sometimes later I got bored with the work because every day I have to deal with numbers and figures all the time.

After that I applied to work in the Department of Foreign Affairs. I passed the exam and worked as a clerk with the lowest pay of 24 Baht per month. In the Department of Foreign Affairs I was assigned to work in a section responsible for the Indochinese Affairs which also covered Burma as well. In the Indochinese Section it covered Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam but also included Burma too. During my time in the Indochinese Section I have always received many reports about the French carrying out persecutions against the Laotian people and against the ethnic Chinese. There were reports from Pak San and Pakse that the French have even shot dead many old ladies who had just taken a bath in the rivers or lakes. And at that time the Issarak Movement was also formed at Aran town. Did you remember?

Borin: I didn’t know about that event because at that time I was too young.

Chea: That was in 1941-42, which was in the Buddhist era of 2486-87.

(To be continued in parts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Two

"Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us." - Nuon Chea

This is the second of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: How old were you when you worked at the government warehouse in Thailand?

Chea: I was about 18 years old. 18 years old was an eligible age to work in the public service.

Borin: Were you holding a Cambodia citizenship?

Chea: I was a Khmer citizen but at that time all natives of Battambang and Siem Reap provinces were allowed to take Thai citizenship. So I had all rights as the Thai people too. Even I was a Khmer citizen by birth but we were all allowed to take Thai citizenship. That was the Thai policy at the time but I noticed that Thailand at that time was not fully democratic yet.

Borin: At that time you worked in the Department of Foreign Affairs in charge of Indochina, including Burma too?

Chea: Yes. When I worked for sometimes I used to receive numerous reports about the French authorities maltreating old Khmer, Laotian and Vietnamese ladies. That caused me to be more anti-French. And co-incidentally the Issarak (independent) Movement was formed at Aranyaprathet town and some of the Issarak activists had fled to Thailand. But at that time the Issarak Movement did not have clear political goals. They were very, very corrupt, like Dap Chhuon and Mr. Hul etc. Have you heard of Hul Vong-Anupheap?

Borin: Yes, I have heard about him.

Chea: The Iassarak leaders such as Chau Pok, Achar Yi, Achar Yaing, Puth Chhay and Siv Thing were all fake Issarak leaders because they have maltreated the people and committed murders and robbery. So I became very disillusioned and asked for a permission to go to work in Thailand and they permitted me to go. At that time I had already joined the Thai Party. And by that time the Indochinese Communist Party had already been formed as well.

Borin: I wish to clarify one point. When you mentioned about the Thai Party, do you mean the Communist Party of Thailand?

Chea: Yest, that’s right. And because I was a Khmer citizen they allowed me to join their party without any obstacle. And through their Vietnamese counterparts they transferred my membership to the Indochinese Communist Party. So in 1950 I left Thailand and went to my old base in Pailin, Samlaut and Sre Andong etc. That experience made me understand more about everything. I waged my struggle from there from 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953 until the Geneva Agreement was signed to end the war in Indochina when the French troops were defeated in Bien Dien Phu.

After the Geneva Conference Vietnam was partitioned into two: The Communist North and South Vietnam which was still under the control of the French Protectorate and Emperor Bao Dai. And in Laos two provinces, Pung Sali and Sam-Noeur, were given autonomous status. In Cambodia there was no partition. All the Isaarak guerrilla fighters were allowed to re-integrate into the society. Their movements and territories were brought back under the central government.

So I decided to re-integrate back into the society but I cannot live in peace because the cruel Lon Nol and Kou Roun cliques and the cruel provincial authorities, especially the military, continued their persecutions against those whom they labelled as Viet Minh resistance fighters. The persecutions were so intense that we dared not stay at our homes. And in 1956 the election was held and the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party won the government. But after the election the persecutions still continue. So I decided to flee to the jungle and organised an armed resistance because at that time they have carried out indiscriminate persecutions against all former members of the Communist Party of Cambodia (CPC). As a result some members of the CPC have turned to gambling and drinking in order to evade and avoid detection. Some even turned into criminal activities. At that time there were not many members of the CPC left because all the Vietnamese resistance fighters have gone back to Vietnam and they have taken along with them about 1,600 Khmers. I knew this because at that time I was based along the Cambodian-Vietnamese border as I was unable to return back to Cambodia.

Later, when I returned back to Cambodia I was introduced to Saloth Sar (Pol Pot) because at that time Saloth Sar had just returned from France. He went to the Eastern Zone and it was there that we have secretly co-operated in our struggle until 1968 and after we were being systematically persecuted we decided to arm the population. At that time were not successful in arming the population because it was not the right time to arm them. And so we have asked our people to lie low. And when we decided to stop arming the population from 1968 onward, co-incidentally the 1970 coup d’etat had been staged successfully.

By that time we had some armed fighters already but after the coup we received a lot of defectors from the Lon Nol army who disapproved of the coup. But these soldiers such as the ones from the American-supported Mike Force were very cruel. These soldiers had tattoos on their hands and were not afraid to commit atrocities because they knew that they could die any time. At the time the Khmer Serei (Free Khmer) which was led by Son Ngoc Thanh was formed. We should forget about Son Ngoc Thanh’s movement. We need at least 3-5 days to discuss about this issue so I just summarise it here.

Borin: Yes, you can summarise it. When Saloth Sar established his base in the Eastern Zone, in which area and province where he set up his base?

Chea: In the border areas of Prey Veng and Svay Rieng provinces along the Vietnamese borders.

Borin: In fact, like you said, in order to discuss about this issue in details we need many, many days to talk. So in short, what you have said above were the main reasons which drove you to join a communist revolutionary movement. Is that right?

Chea: That’s right.

Borin: What did you see were the differences of the movement’s policies before it came to power and after it came to power?

Chea: Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us. But when we led the party to an armed victory against America in 1975 our party became very famous. The 1975 victory was a very beautiful victory. No other foreign countries helped us to victory. We won the war by ourselves, by the bravery of our Khmer people. This is the reason why I respected and admired the bravery of our fathers and mothers, our sons and daughters. Some families had given up their husbands and some families had given up seven to eight sons to become fighters against the Lon Nol army. Our country was a fantastic country at that time. That’s the reasons we had the issue with the events of the 3 years reign (Khmer Rouge rule). But no one bothered about the event of the previous 5 years when America incited Lon Nol, Sirik Matak and Son Ngoc Thanh to stage a coup d’etat. No one cared about how many people were killed when Lon Nol launched a coup to topple His Majesty (Sihanouk). There were demonstrations and protests everywhere and many demonstrators were killed such as in Spean Chroy A-Ork and in Kampong Cham. So, on this issue if we talk in details we need to write a lot. So I wish to end our conversation right here because I need to go to the temple right now…

(To be continued in parts 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Four

File photo shows Khieu Samphan, then prime minister of the "Democtratic Kampuchea" arriving in Beijing, 19 August 1975, for a state visit in China. Samphan was arrested Monday by Cambodia's UN-backed genocide tribunal, a court spokesman said without elaborating on the charges.(AFP/File)

The following is part four of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: On this point, other than being one of the intellectuals, you were also one of the politicians who strongly supported Prince Sihanouk's policy of neutrality. When foreign troops came to station on our soil, what do you think about the government allowing them to station in our border areas or even stationing themselves in some parts of Cambodia's provinces?

Samphan: This is my view: right or wrong we can discuss about it further in order to use it to serve as a lesson for our history. And there are many issues which have to be debated and discussed in order for us to learn about our history.

Now, for this issue, this is how I understand it: At that time it was not only me who had this sort of view. This was how most of us understand about this issue at that time and that was we have to be practical. At that time we did not have enough forces to drive the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese out because the North Vietnamese forces have defeated the French forces in the Battle of Bien Dien Phu. On the other hand, our troops had never fought any war. We had no experience in fighting. So if we use military means to solve our problems on this issue, I was of the view that it was not the right way to solve that problem. If we wanted to solve the problem that way we must join with the American forces. But we could not even do that because the American forces were busy fighting their war too. So they will not be happy to help us. In my view, Prince Sihanouk's policy at that time was to contain and confine the war to the border areas and not to allow it to spill over deep inside Cambodia. But he could not do that because both sides had strong and powerful military forces. So when they fought each other they cannot avoid spilling the war into Cambodia. But we must contain the spills at the border areas and not to allow the fightings to be spilled deep inside our country. That's what happened. But if we attacked them they will surely fight back because they have nowhere to go to. And we could not fight them because we did not have enough troops.

Borin: Cambodia at that time knew that it had no forces to fight against the Viet Cong who stationed it's forces on our soil illegally. But according to the behaviour of our government at that time it seemed to be against America and therefore had turned a blind eye to the other forces using our soil to fight against America. This was the issue.

Samphan: Yes, if we look at the situation through this angle we can see the situation this way. But in my own personal view Vietnam should not create any problems with Cambodia anymore after that because Cambodia, during Prince Sihanouk's rule, helped Vietnam to a certain extent. And Cambodia, after the 1970's coup d'etat, that is to say during the Khmer Rouge regime, had helped Vietnam to a certain extent as well. This is the fact. So Vietnam should not cause any trouble for Cambodia. Like in 1967, 1968 Vietnam stopped respecting our borders which they had in the past agreed to respect. I hope to have an opportunity to discuss this issue with you later.

Borin: I would like to bring you back to your first 'open letter'. On point three, you said that you never knew any leaders of the Communist Party of Cambodia. You never liked or have never joined that party before. Why then when you got into trouble (in 1967) you seemed to be so sure that they will ensure your safety and security. How it turned out to be like that?

Samphan: You are right. But when I was threatened with arrests, as I told you before, the situation at that time was not the same as before that. The threats against me can't be taken for granted. My security in Phnom Penh cannot be assured anymore, so I must flee. That's the first point. But on the other hand, I saw that those who fled to the jungle before me, which I was not sure when, have followed my situation very closely. So they sent me and Hou Youn a letter because both of us were ordered to be arrested by military court because both of us were accused of being leftists. But Hou Youn and me were the main targets of the arrests. So at that time they sent a messenger, who was a respectable and credible old man, whom I knew when he was a member of the association of a senior citizens' group of the Sisowath College. And that association used to meet very often for dinner etc. in order to discuss about various issues. So we have touched on the issues concerning the current state of affairs of Cambodia at that time. And after that both Hou Youn and I knew that old man very well.

Borin: Mr. President, can you tell our listeners about the identity of the old man who handed the letter to you in that meeting?

Samphan: Yes. That old man was a doctor who had joined the senior citizens' association.

Borin: What was his name?

Samphan: Sorry, I can't remember his name because it was a long time ago.

Borin: I hope you can recall his name in our next interview.

Samphan: Yes, sure. The contents of the letter mentioned about the issues of the current political situation in Cambodia at that time. So I assumed that because the writer had deep understanding of the political situation at that time, I concluded that he must be a political activist. So he must be a person chosen by the people from the jungle base to be the messenger.

Borin: Did that letter have any signature on it?

Samphan: There was no signature because the situation at that time was dangerous so they have to be cautious. They could be arrested for doing that.

Borin: Can you assume who the letter writer was and who were the leaders of the movement at that time?

Samphan: At that time no one knew for sure. We just knew for a long time that there were people fleeing to the jungle. We only knew very sketchy about that. Those people have organised the movement there in their jungle base. So I have discussed with Hou Youn that we have no where to escape to other than taking a risk and flee to join those people in the jungle. At that point we realised that this old man must be genuine in helping us to escape if we were to survive. But to what degree he can help us we were not yet sure. So that's why we decided to flee to the jungle.

After we got that letter and because we had not escaped, the old man came to see us and asked why we hadn't escaped. Was it because we were too scared to flee?

It took us many days before we decided to go to the jungle. After we decided to go the old man came to fetch us in his car and drove us to Route Three. At dusk we reached a place just before Ang To Sorm. At that time there was a group of people waiting for us there. We got off the car and they gave each of us a bike. We rode the bike off the road and onto the dike one after the other in the middle of the rice fields by following the light of the stars. When we reached our destination, we noticed that delicate security arrangement was organised to facilitate our escape. They passed a message by whispering from one person to one person that we were one of them. That we were not a threat to them. So they let us go through. In fact we rode a bicycle for less than half an hour when we reached our jungle base. When we reached that village they asked us to go up a house. When I got up to the house the first person I saw was Ta Mok who sat quietly there.

Borin: Mr. President, I would like to clarify this point a little bit. Who was the first person you met?

Samphan: Ta Mok.

Borin: You mean our Ta Mok, the one who is presently being detained?

Samphan: Yes, yes, that's right. At that time he was in Kampong Speu. He was in charge there. In fact I never knew him before. And at that time I didn't even know who he was. They just introduced him to me as Ta Mok. At that time he was dressed in a black, short-sleeved shirt and a short. And the shirt has no button because I can see that his chest was full of hair.

Borin: What was the name of the village where you met Ta Mok for the first time?

Samphan: The name of the village was Cheung Tong village, Cheung Tong commune, Samrong Tong district and Kampong Speu province. At that time we sat cross-legged around a kerose lamp. In our first meeting it was very short. He just asked us where were we going and which way we came through etc. It was just a normal conversation. A short time later he invited the owner of the house to join us...

(To be continued in parts 5, 6...)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Five

The following is part five of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: What was the date and month when you first met Ta Mok?

Samphan: When I left Phnom Penh it was in 1967, April or something like that. I cannot remember the month but I remembered the year clearly.

Borin: Due to some records we knew that you and your former comrade Pol Pot, alias Saloth Sar, studied at Kampong Cham College together. This is the first point. And the other point is that both of you studied in France together. When you entrusted your security to the Khmer Rouge movement, did you know at that time that your former comrade Pol Pot was the leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Samphan: No, in fact I did not know clearly that he was the president of that party. But I knew Pol Pot, alias Saloth Sar, when we studied in Kampong Cham together. He was one grade ahead of me. Sencondly, he was older than me so we were not very close at that time. But I noticed that he was a sportsman, a soccer player. He was also a musician, a violin player. When there was a students' performance at the school he was the one who helped to organise it and he played the music for the performance. I never knew that the Saloth Sar I knew in Kampong Cham was in fact Pol Pot later on. When we left Kampong Chan he took a senior high school diploma exam before me. I can't remember whether he had passed the exam or failed. And I didn't know where he had gone to study after that. And when I went to study in France I never met him because when I went there he had already returned to Cambodia.

Borin: When you had returned back to Cambodia, did you know where Saloth Sar was working at that time?

Samphan: I knew that he was a teacher at Chamroeun Vichea College. But I never pay attention to what he was doing at that time because I was not interested. I just knew from some people that he worked there as a teacher.

Borin: When you sought refuge and protection from the Communist Party of Cambodia, when was the first time you met Saloth Sar?

Samphan: I only met Pol Pot after the coup d'etat in 1970.

Borin: Where did you meet him?

Samphan: I met him at Stung Chinit (Chinit River) along the border of Kampong Thom province and Kampong Cham, north of Phnom Trong, near the Kan Ven? Centre. So I met him only after the 1970 coup in his capacity as the leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia. I was very, very surprised because I never thought that the Saloth Sar I knew at Kampong Cham College can be this important.

Borin: Mr. President, I still can remember in your previous comments that before the 1970 war, there was a war between the authority of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum and the communist resistance. Is that true that the first war occurred in Samlaut?

Samphan: No, in fact the first conflict did not happen in Samlaut. Samlaut was a peasants' uprising who revolted against the authority who confiscated their lands. Now, after more studies we found out that it was the case. It was an instantaneous peasants uprising without any involvement from the Communist Party Cambodia or the Khmer Rouge leaders at all. But there were some Khmer Rouge leaders who lived there also took part in the uprising. But it was not orchestrated or organised by the Khmer Rouge movement. Pol Pot said later that he did not support that uprising because if there was an uprising like that the armed forces will use the excuse to destroy the movement. We knew that the Samlaut crackdown was so heavy-handed, violent and brutal. Too many peasants were killed, about one thousands of them. And the survivors managed to escape to Vay Chap Mountain. And Vay Chap Mountain was where the former anti-French resistance fighters and the Viet Minh fighters had hidden their weapons. Vay Chap Mountain now doesn't have much forest and jungle but at that time the areas along Route Six was a dense jungle. So when those peasants reached the Khmer Rouge base they were provided for and trained as fighters. And the Samlaut uprising has coined a term "hunt down the Khmer Rouge".

Borin: Who coined the phrase "hunt down the Khmer Rouge"?

Samphan: It was a slogan from the authority. It was from Lon Nol's authority to be precise, because at that time everyone knew that Gen. Lon Nol was very fiercely against the Vietnamese communist. So by being strongly anti-Vetnamese communist he was also fiercely against the Khmer Rouge. And at that time the term "Kher Rouge" had already been coined. At that time when there was an uprising they always blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. Even there was a students demonstration they blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. When there was a students demonstration in Siem Reap they blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. So the incident in that year was not yet a war. And the reasons that they used to accuse me of supporting the Samlaut Uprising was because I, Hou Youn and other intellectuals were leftist politicians. That's why there were arrest warrants to put us on trial in the military court.

The Samlaut Uprising was in fact not very significant but due to the brutal crackdown it was similar to the brutal crackdown carried by Suharto and Nasution against the communists in Indonesia. That's why there was a talk of the town among people living in Phnom Penh that in Cambodia there was also a "Suharto-Nasution" as well. That's was what happened. I cannot take for granted the accusation against me at that time. The Khmer Rouge from the resistance base have told me that if I did not escape I will face grave danger to my life. So they said that I must escape and they will help to facilitate my escape.

Borin: I remembered that you said that before the 1970 war there was a war before that, what was that war?

Samphan: After the crackdown in Samlaut there were crackdowns in other rural areas and in Phnom Penh as well. So the Khmer Rouge realised that if they don't have any weapons to resist and to fight back against Gen. Lon Nol's army they all will be massacred like those people who escaped to Vay Chap Mountain as well. So they decided to take up arms combining with their political struggle. That was their aims. They realised that they cannot continue their political struggle alone. They must combine armed struggle with political struggle. But at that time the Khmer Rouge had no weapons and began searching for backers. So they decided that they must look to the North Vietnamese. That was what I was told later because at that time I didn't know anything clearly.

And at that time the North Vietnamese refused to provide us with weapons. Even with one gun they refused to give us. But when they refused our request they have their own reasons because at that time they need to transport their weapons through Kampong Som port as all weapons from China have to go through Kampong Som port because the Ho Chi Minh Trail was heavily bombarded by the American planes. All forces travelling from North Vietnam were almost destroyed before they reached Cambodian territories. All the weapons transported by trucks were almost completely destroyed so the Ho Chi Minh Trail cannot be used since 1967. That's why they used the Kampong Som port to transport the weapons instead. When the ships arrived the trucks belonging to the Royal Cambodian Armed forces were waiting to transport them through Phnom Penh, with full military escort, to the eastern borders. The trucks often stopped by in Phnom Penh to pick up food supplies such as rice to give to the Vietnamese. So if the Vietnamese provide us with weapons they were afraid that His Majesty (Sihanouk) and the royal government, which was led by Gen. Lon Nol, would close their supply routes so they cannot give us the weapons. But on the side of the Khmer Rouge, who was persecuted and cracked down on everywhere, were very, very angry. That was the beginning of the disputes between the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese. So after that, where did the Communist Party of Cambodia get their weapons? They took them from the government military warehouses of Gen. Lon Nol. Lon Nol at that time was both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence and the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces as well. So the Khmer Rouge stole weapons from government military warehouses, like where I lived in Kampong Speu there were lots of weapons being stolen from the government in that areas. Our soldiers surrounded the warehouses and went in to take the weapons. Why we can take the weapons from there as there were people guarding the warehouses? We can do that because we have our agents there whom we recruited from peasant families to act as our secret agents. That's how we get our weapons because those secret agents were also carrying weapons as well...

(To be continued in part 6..)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Six

The following is part six of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: If I'm not wrong you have said that the North Vietnamese has refused to provide weapons to the Communist Party of Cambodia because they need permission from the government of Gen. Lon Nol and Prince Sihanouk to transport their ammunitions through Cambodia. And the Khmer Rouge was able to get their weapons to wage wars through their militants working in military warehouses and who acted as agents.

Samphan: We got weapons through our guardian units who were secretly recruited by us but some of them have also joined the militant units as well. They also carry guns as well. And those people have the habits of borrowing guns to go hunting from the guards who were not the agents. And because our agents were the guards there as well they can go in and out as normal. So our agents, after they got the guns, they turned against the other guards by pointing the guns at them. They then allowed our people from outside to go in and take the weapons. That's how they were able to go inside the warehouses and took the weapons from there. That was the job of Ta Mok's boys from the Southwestern Region. And the units from the Southwestern Region under Ta Mok were able to steal more weapons than any other units. The other areas which got their weapons this way were in Rattanakiri and the Northeast Region. But they got less weapons because there were not much weapons to steal, only crossbows etc.

Borin: The strategy of stealing weapons at that time were carried out concurrently between all the regions or they were carried out at different times?

Samphan: The plan was to carry it out concurrently because of the experience in Vay Chap Mountain. The people there went to dig out weapons and fight against the government at different times which were not effective. So they did not want to do like that again. They wanted all the forces everywhere to fight at the same time so that Gen. Lon Nol's army would not be able to mobilise their forces to destroy us one by one. So when there were concurrent campaigns like that we were able to stand up to them and were able to seize more weapons from Lon Nol's army to wage a guerrilla warfare. But all the weapons that we were able to seize from them were really, realy old weapons because I was there. I have seen all those weapons when I was in Prey Thom (the Great Jungle) which was situated north of Route Four. All those weapons were from World War One's period. They were very old. We can only shoot one bullet at a time. The Khmer Rouge were very happy because those weapons were better than nothing. So since then Gen. Lon Nol's forces cannot go to crackdown in any village because the villagers will fight back and can even seize more weapons from them. That was the first war in 1968. That's what happened. At that time the Khmer Rouge began to train their forces. That was in 1968.

Borin: Mr. President, when you first joined the Khmer Rouge what was your role at that time?

Samphan: I did not have any function at that time. When I first arrived, like I told you before, they wanted me to hide quietly in Cheung Tong village for about four months in oder for me to get used to a jungle life but they provided coffee and so on because we still can buy cakes, lollies there as usual. If we need them just ask the people and they will go to buy them at Ang Ta Sorm. So after a short time there Ta Mok came to tell me that they have to move me to the other side. I cannot stay here anymore because the government might find out. They don't want me and Hou Youn arrested by the government and in oder to evade the authority I cannot stay in one place for too long. I have to move from one place to one place.

Borin: When you stay in each place, has Ta Mok ever taken you and Hou Youn to meet with the guerrilla fighters?

Samphan: No, because at that time they did not want anybody to know that we were living there. Even among themselves they don't even let anyone know that I was there. But as usual there were still someone who knew that we were living there. But their policy was not to let anyone know that we were there and as a result they never let us join their meetings. But in the village where I stayed they talked openly about politics. That's why latter on they called that village a "Sangkum Niyum" (socialist) village, the liberated village and so on. They used a lot of new capitalist and liberal vocabularies that we never thought that they can use in the rural and Khmer Rouge zone.

Borin: Can you give us an example of the words they used?

Samphan: For example, they talked about materialism, about history, about rice association, about medical association and they have talked about the kerose association etc. It was interesting so we both were trying to listen and to understand them as it gave us something to cheer about.

Borin: At that time were you aware of who were the most important leaders in the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Samphan: No, I didn't know because Ta Mok rarely come to see us. And when he came to see us he never talked about who were their the leaders or where they lived. He never told us anything like that. We both were too afraid to ask. Because they were waging a guerrilla warfare so they were very secretive. You only know about your business and anyone else's business you should not want to know. See nothing and hear nothing. That's their slogan. So I never wanted to ask them anything. That's their language, like when they talked about 'rice association'. I just knew later that it was a way of helping each other. So after the harvest those who have more rice can keep some and put some of their rice in the association in order to help those who do not have enough rice to feed their family, because if they borrow someone's rice they have to pay back double etc. So the rice that was allocated to the association were earmarked for lending to the people who are in need without charging any interest when they repaid back to the association. That's what they called the rice association.

As for the 'medical association' it means that when people bought the medicines they are not to make any profits when they resale them to the villagers. They are allowed to sell at the same price as when they bought them plus the costs of their journey to buy that medicines. The 'kerose association' is the same. They bought kerose in big containers, not in small containers. When they sold to the villagers they have to charge the same price as when they bought the kerose. They are not allowed to make any profits. I was so surprised because I did not think that they were able to organise all of these.

Borin: Now, I would like to touch on another issue in relation to the war in 1970. But because we run out of time I would like to end the interview right here and I would like to thank you so much.

Samphan: Thank you, Borin. and good-bye.

(To be continued....more of Khieu Samphan's interviews will be posted soon as this interview has not finished yet. After these six-part interview Khmerization will bring to you Khieu Samphan's biography which will be posted soon...).

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The Reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Three

File photo shows Kieu Samphan, as prime minister of the "Democtratic Kampuchea" and Army Chief of staff, congratulating his troups in April 1976. Samphan was arrested Monday by Cambodia's UN-backed genocide tribunal, a court spokesman said without elaborating on the charges.(AFP/File)

The following is part three of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com

Sam Borin: Mr. President, on this point I would like to clarify something. In 1967 or even 1968, it was a period under the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime. You said that the authority persecuted the people. Were the authorities from the Sangkum Reastr Niyum or from somewhere else?

Samphan: Now we have seen clearly. At that time we cannot see anything clearly. During the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime there were people who came from many different political persuasions. Those who joined the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party came from many different parties such as the Democratic Party, the Neang Kunghing (Earth) Party etc. Those were people who came from different political parties to join the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party. Each one of them still have their old ideology that led to many schools of thought and different political leanings. And no one knew who beat me up at that time. Only later that people found out who they were. At that time there were rumours that those who beat me up were people who did not like me because they accused me of being a Khmer Rouge. They said that it was the cyclopusse (rickshaw) drivers and the ordinary people who hated me who carried out the attack on me. At that time no one knew that it was the police who carried out that attack. But at that time Kou Roun, who was minister of security, went around showing off the photo of an attack on me to everyone to make fun of me. So from then on people knew that it was the police who carried out that attack. From the beginning people never thought that the attack was the work of the police. They thought that it was the work of the cyclopusse who hated me. When Kou Roun got the photo of the attack he went around showing it off to everyone that's why everyone knew it was Kou Roun's police who attacked me. And later on, someone did the investigation and found out more about that. I never thought of reporting it to anyone because I was not one hundred per cent sure. Also I did not want to complicate the matter further. So I just continue to do my newspaper work as usual because I did not want any more trouble.

Borin: I would like to ask you, in your capacity as a member of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, what was the relationship between the party members and the party president at that time.

Samphan: As far as I can remember there was no relationship. And the Prince probably knew that those who attacked me were the people who did not like me, whom they accused of being a Khmer Rouge, because of what I wrote in my newspaper. And Mr. Kou Roun had one time called me into his office and questioned why someone like me who graduated with a doctorate did not apply for a job with the government? Why did I became an editor of my own newspaper? Is it because I was against the policy of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum?

I have to admit that when I studied in France I have observed that most people who had higher qualification had also become an editor of the newspaper after they graduated. It was a normal thing. And my decision to establish my own newspaper was because I wanted to lead a life as an intellectual who used to live with ordinary people. So I have heard a lot of diverging opinions from ordinary people. At that time there were two distinctive schools of thought. One side was so happy with the outcome of the Bandung Conference which could lead our country to prosperity because it envisaged a policy of neutrality- neither leaning toward America nor leaning toward the Soviet Union. Those people who supported that policy were the monks, ordinary people, the teachers and even the intellectuals who had just returned from study abroad. All of them would like Cambodia to follow this path. Even I myself supported that policy. This is the first point I wanted to make.

The second point is that I have noticed that in the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime there were people from sections of the armed forces who did not like Sihanouk's policy of neutrality because it could create a problem with America because they thought that we sided with the Resistance, especially the Vietnamese resistance. And these people thought that because we were not truly neutral, we would have angered America anyway. And as a result, we would always have problems with America.

So since then those kinds of people, such as military leaders, viewed that Cambodia always need American aid. Those sections of the people were not confined to the military alone but also business people as well. They all need American aid and they always complained about our policy of neutrality. So at that time we had two schools of thought.

Even intellectuals who went to study in France were divided on the issue of neutrality. One side supported the policy of neutrality which has been agreed at the Bandung Conference because they thought that it was the right path to take. They saw that a lot of countries from Africa also followed that path as they did not want to support either the American side or the socialist bloc.

Also at that time we had the Dap Chhuon Affairs when Dap Chhuon accepted arms cache from the South Vietnamese government. He also received 270 kilograms of gold from South Vietnam as well, in an attempt to stage a beakaway by cutting off the northwestern provinces from the central administration. The authority found out about the plan so they destroyed it before it was hatched. But the Cambodian authority thought that the problem might not end there. They had to do something to prevent another possible Dap Chhuon-style uprising. The authority assumed that a weapon cache from South Vietnam must be the work of America who had recruited people from Cambodia to oppose the path decided in Bandung which was neither the American path nor the socialist path.

On the other side of the intellectual circle, they thought that the only path to survival for Cambodia was to establish a republic. But one side of this camp argued that if Cambodia was to establish a republic, where could they get the support from? They must contemplate the American support in order to topple the monarchy and establish a republic. So we see that this issue posed a problem so they have to discuss about the pros and the cons. What will be the benefits and what will be the disadvantage?

So when I heard all those diverging opinions, I decided to establish my own newspaper to support that policy of neutrality in order to generate debate for the pros and the cons of both diverging views.

That was the reason why I established my own newspaper. And as a result I was accused of opposition to His Majesty (Sihanouk) just because I did not join his government. In fact I was never against him. My newspapers have been archived so if anyone wanted to know they can read them and will see whether I was against him or not. But at that time there were accusations that I was against His Majesty. That's why I was attacked by the secret police.

Borin: Mr. President, when you mentioned about the reason why you established your own newspaper was because of the diverging views at that time between supporters of the free world and the supporters of the socialist world. One reason amongst other reasons were that you saw that the policy of neutrality agreed in the Bandung Conference was not implemened properly in Cambodia because of the facts that Cambodia allowed foreign troops, especially the Vietnamese troops, to station on the neutral land of Cambodia. In your capacity as a member of parliament of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, how did you view that issue? And what view did you present to the party and the party president?

Samphan: According to my recollection we have debated this issue in the parliament on the one hand. And on the other hand we had privately discussed amongst ourselves in our capacity as members of parliament and in the intellectual circle. We came to the conclusion that, in fact, His Majesty (Sihanouk) did not allow those Vietnamese troops to station on our soil.

In the Vietnam war the Vietnamese resistance side had fought to unite their country. But they were met with resistance from America which supported the South Vietnamese administration. At that time, in comparison, the American side was militarily stronger. So the Vietnamese resistance fighters were forced to escape to hide themselves in the areas along our borders. And if we examined closely Prince Sihanouk knew that militarily we did not have enough troops to push them out. If we tried to push them out we would have more problems with them. So the Prince turned a blind eye and let them stay there. But he had his own way and that was he insisted those Vietnamese troops who were stationed on our soil must recognise the current borders of Cambodia.

He had not only asked the Vietnamese resistance side to respect our border. He had also demanded that the South Vietnamese, the American, the North Vietnamese sides and other countries around Cambodia to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cambodia in the context of the current border demarcations.

So if we talk about the reality and in fairness, we can see that Prince Sihanouk had never sold our land to the Vietnamese like some of our intellectuals had said. That's what happened.

(To be continued in parts 4, 5, 6...).