Former Rebels Skeptical of Guilty Verdicts

Tep Kunnal, a former aid to Pol Pot and KR ambassador to the UN, talks to VOA Khmer. [KI-Media note: he is also the current husband of Pol Pot's second wife]

By Sok Khemara, VOA Khmer
Original report from Cambodia
26 March 2009

“For instance, the skull bones that have been displayed: the court must know which skull belonged to a person killed by the Vietnamese, which belonged to a person killed by B-52 bombers, or any of the Khmers who did not die by the Khmer Rouge” - Long Narin, ex-aid to former foreign minister Ieng Sary

With five leaders awaiting trial at the Khmer Rouge tribunal, former cadre and other officials say the court could have a hard time building cases against them. Not everyone agrees.

“How can [evidence] be found?” asked Sok Pheap, a former Khmer Rouge division commander, in an exclusive interview with VOA Khmer at his home in Malai district, Banteay Meanchey province.

Now a major general in the army, following a defection from the Khmer Rouge in 1996, Sok Pheap is a deputy chief on the Cambodian side of a joint border committee with Thailand.

“Who were the killers?” he asked. “I didn’t know; I was the soldier in the forest, and when I came back home also my relatives had gone missing, killed, and most of villagers had died.”

The five jailed senior leaders—Nuon Chea, Khieu Samphan, Ieng Sary, Ieng Thirith and Kaing Kek Iev—are all facing various atrocity crimes charges and are being held in detention. Kaing Kek Iev, better known as Duch, will have the first day in court, March 30, in what is expected to be the easiest case to try.

Directly linking other leaders to the killings might be harder than it seems, and have unintended consequences, former rebels said.

Long Norin, the ex-aid to former foreign minister Ieng Sary, told VOA Khmer that trying leaders who were not responsible for the killing will cause people to feel unstable.

He gave as an example Khieu Samphan, who was the nominal head of the Khmer Rouge but who Long Norin says held no real power.

“Those who killed their fathers are still free and alive today,” he said. “That’s what I’m concerned about. Why are they not arrested? Khieu Samphan…not even a chicken would he dare to kill.”

Long Narin said the tribunal won’t be able to find justice for the deaths caused by the Khmer Rouge and will only impair development of the country.

Former Khmer Rouge division commander Meas Muth, who experts say could face indictment if the tribunal widens its prosecution, said the Khmer Rouge should not be blamed for killings. If the courts are legitimate, he said, anyone who was guilty should be arrested.

“For instance, the skull bones that have been displayed: the court must know which skull belonged to a person killed by the Vietnamese, which belonged to a person killed by B-52 bombers, or any of the Khmers who did not die by the Khmer Rouge.”

The Khmer Rouge tribunal’s international prosecutor, Robert Petit, has said more indictments should be investigated, a recommendation opposed by his Cambodian counterpart, Chea Leang. The Pre-Trial Chamber has yet to decide on whether more people will be investigated.

However, Tep Kunnal, a former aid to Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge ambassador to the UN, said the tribunal law passed by the National Assembly specifies that only senior leaders of the regime will be prosecuted.

He said he supported whatever the UN and Cambodian positions of further indictments turn out to be, as both sides would be seeking to find solutions to tribunal problems.

“In peace-building like we have today, and joint development of the country like we have today,” he said, “one would not do anything backward; one would take Cambodia as a sample for other places in solving every issue.”

Tep Kunnal would not comment on what difficulties the court might face finding documents to link senior leaders to the killing fields.

However, lawyer Sok Sam Oeun, director of the Cambodia Defenders Project, said Khmer Rouge cases that have been buried for 30 years could be difficult to find evidence and witnesses for. Those who know the most are former Khmer Rouge cadre, he said, and unlikely to testify against their supporters.

“There are two issues in the Khmer Rouge trial,” he said. “One: to find evidence that the crime happened, and at this point, that’s not hard for the Khmer Rouge tribunal. But because our Khmer Rouge court does not charge the perpetrator—we charge those most responsible—it may be hard to find evidence or witnesses that can say, ‘Oh, the most responsible person is that name, A, or that name, B.’”

Youk Chhang, director of the Documentation Center of Cambodia, which has given more than 600,000 documents to the court, disagrees.

“There are many that want to be witnesses, no one is afraid,” he said. “The number of documents is not important, but wisdom to understand the story, to understand the history, and the legal aspects, is important. And that’s the role of the court.”

Many documents exist that former Khmer Rouge cadre are unaware of, even those linking the killings to their orders, he said. Skulls can now be verified through scientific experts and DNA, and analyzed for cause of death.

“It’s the obligation of the lawyers to make historical documents into evidence,” he added, “and it’s the obligation of the courts to connect these documents to the crimes that occurred.”

Meas Muth, Ta Mok’s Son-In-Law, Might Face Arrest

17-01-2008
By Den Sorin
Moneaksekar Khmer
Unofficial Translation from Khmer by KRtrial.info

Meas Muth, Ta Mok’s son-in-law, might face arrest, according to a source from a senior official in the Ministry of Interior, but the arrest will not be made by the government but by the Khmer Rouge tribunal. The official in the Ministry of Interior said that some former Khmer Rouge commanders might face arrest by the government and some by the Khmer Rouge tribunal. Those who will be arrested by the government are related to the murder of a British deminer and a Cambodian interpreter. Among those people, a former Khmer Rouge commander has been arrested already.

However, Meas Muth will not be arrested by the government but by the tribunal since Meas Muth is not only Ta Mok’s son-in-law, but also a member of the Central Committee of the Khmer Rouge communist party.

At present, Meas Muth, 69, is residing in Samlot. His home is made of luxurious wood and has a different style from others in Samlot, a former Khmer Rouge stronghold. One can easily find Meas Muth’s home by simply asking the local people and they will point to the plush home of Meas Muth. On the wall of the house hang Meas Muth’s photos. It seems like he was the hero of a regime which made the country prosperous.

In contrast, the Khmer Rouge regime caused the destruction and mass murder in the country. For this reason, diplomats around the world called the Democratic Kampuchea regime “the Killing Fields”. Therefore, the photos of Meas Muth are for himself only, not for Cambodian people.

Recently, Meas Muth has told some foreign journalists that he had no confidence in the Khmer Rouge tribunal to seek justice for the victims. Meas Muth pointed out that the trial should not only be held for the killings by the Khmer Rouge, but also for the death caused by B52 bombs of the US and for the killings by the Vietnamese troops.

Meas Muth claimed that if the court could investigate all those killings, he would believe that the Khmer Rouge court could give justice to victims. “The Khmer Rouge court will not be able to give victims justice if it could not find the people related to these events from other countries,” claimed Meas Muth.

Through his speech, Meas Muth seems to be trying to shirk his responsibility for the mass killings during the Khmer Rouge regime.

At present, the Khmer Rouge tribunal has taken 5 former Khmer Rouge leaders into custody. They are Khieu Samphan, Nuon Chea, Ieng Sary, Ieng Thirith and Kaing Guek Eav, commonly known as Duch. The Khmer Rouge leaders who have been listed to face trial include Pol Pot, Son Sen, Khieu Samphan, Nuon Chea, Ieng Sary, Ieng Thirith, Ta Mok, Ke Pok, Duch, and Yon Yat, Son Sen’s wife. However, amongst these people some have already died and only the five important figures being detained at the Khmer Rouge tribunal are still alive.

According to a source close to the Khmer Rouge tribunal, although only the aforementioned are listed in the agreement on the establishment of the Khmer Rouge tribunal, the agreement gives way to the tribunal’s judges to issue arrest warrant on others who are found deeply related. And Meas Muth will be one of them.

Meas Muth once told a foreign journalist that he was not interested in the court, and claimed that the deaths of Cambodians had been related to other countries.

Meanwhile, Reach Sambath claimed that the Khmer Rouge tribunal was not authorized to try foreign leaders.

According to an Interior Ministry’s official who asked for anonymity, secret police have been sent to Somlot to observe Meas Muth, in case he flees abroad. However, it is believed that Meas Muth could escape to nowhere besides Thailand. And if he escapes to Thailand, it will not be a concern since Cambodia and Thailand have signed an extradition treaty with each other already. The two countries will make good cooperation in this issue.

At the moment, there is chaos in the former Khmer Rouge stronghold after a rumour has been circulated that there will be more arrests of former Khmer Rouge commanders. However, some former Khmer Rouge people and soldiers are happy with the arrest and the trial since if there is the trial, all Cambodians will have no more doubts about the mass killings during the Khmer Rouge regime, as the Khmer Rouge leaders will give an account of those killings.

A middle-level ranking Khmer Rouge leader said that at the moment even Tep Khunnal was also [paranoid]. Tep Khunnal is a former Khmer Rouge diplomat and personal assistant to Pol Pot. He is currently an official of the Cambodian People’s Party and also Malay’s district deputy governor. Besides, Tep Khunnal is also a wealthy man along the border. Some sources said that although Tep Khunnal would not be arrested, he would inevitably become a witness in the Khmer Rouge tribunal.