Wrongly suffered but ended up good?
Wrongly suffered and ended really bad?Khieu Samphan: Suffering Can Be Wrong but Good
By Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Original report from Phnom Penh
15 November 2007
[Editor's note: Three hours before he suffered an apparent stroke Tuesday, Khieu Samphan gave a 20-minute phone interview to VOA Khmer. He was taken to a Phnom Penh hospital Wednesday, and has not talked to the media since his arrival. What follows is part three of a four-part series detailing Tuesday's interview.]
There had been mass killings, yes. And they affected almost every family. But Khieu Samphan, former nominal head of the regime responsible for the killings, said Tuesday he could not explain this.
"I can't," he said. "That's what encouraged me to do research, and now I know it."
Khieu Samphan has published two books since the fall of the Khmer Rouge. His own research did not show that the Khmer Rouge was intent on killing its own people, he said.
"So, they need more research. That is just my own view. I just want to urge Cambodian people to learn more about their own history and do more research on the killing," he said. "I totally understand that almost every family was affected by the killing. That is completely true, but why did that happen?"
"You can put the blame on the Khmer Rouge because they governed the country, but what else besides that?" he continued. "Why did the killing happen? We suffered from all kinds of bad things, trying to escape B-52 bombing, so I mean we came all the way from all kinds of suffering just to kill our own people? That is why I was wondering. Don't just believe anything they say."
Human society is different from "insects," he said, which "do things according to instinct."
"People do not just follow what their leaders said," he said. "They can't just enter a crab hole according to a leader's order. They followed what is right, but not just anything, such as the case of rebellion in Samlot at that time. Why is that?"
The history of the Khmer Rouge needs more research, he said. Historians "got things right on B-52 bombardment, but they did not get the truth about Khmer Rouge mass killings."
The role of Cambodia's army fighting Cambodians "needs to be found out," he said, hinting that researchers had glossed over portions of history. "Unfortunately, researchers did not find that. I don't blame them, as they are foreigners. Instead, I appreciate the fact that they managed to achieve that amount of work. But I just want them to do more research on that."
Asked what principles were used by the Khmer Rouge to govern, Khieu Samphan said only, "law came from the party, and the party came from the struggle. And for the struggle to succeed, we needed people."
Without similar struggle principles, Mao Zedong could not have liberated China, so the principles were good, Khieu Samphan said.
"China would not have existed through today without Mao Zedong's contribution," Khieu Samphan said. "How poor was China in the past? How badly was China insulted by the French and the English? In Shanghai, in French and English homes, at the entrance there was always a sign saying, 'No dogs or Chinese.' And now look at China! Some countries are afraid that China will become a superpower. I guess it's just economically powerful. And now look at Vietnam after its liberation, how fast it developed its economy."
"So, it does not really matter if a country has a communist regime," he continued. "If we talk about Khmers, if we had managed to liberate our country and had smooth reconstruction, even if we endured some suffering, such as starvation, it would have been wrong, but it would have been good."
There were those who considered Cambodians who were "evacuated" from the cities "war victims," he said, "but my research suggested that there was a law decree about that at the time, and even Pol Pot himself at that time again and again said not to consider the evacuated as war victims."
"We need to make sure that we treat good people or hard working people well and those who opposed us accordingly," he said.
"Regarding the killing, suffering, and starvation, I think it was not Pol Pot who caused it," Khieu Samphan said. "He alone could not do it all. Pol Pot was in charge of investigating and arresting important cadre, probably hundreds of people, not thousands. The arrests kept increasing because these cadre had their own networks, conflicts, jealousy. That is why there were extrajudicial killing."
Eventually, he said, an expression emerged from eastern zones: "No gain in keeping, no loss in killing."
"I was just wondering where the words came from, because I never heard of this, even in the meeting of the Central Committee or the Permanent Committee," he said. "So it must have come from those regional leaders…who once lived with the Vietnamese."
Later, he said, he was "shocked" to hear that a starving person could be killed for stealing a yam.
"I did not know that until late 1989," he said, "when a Khmer Rouge soldier told me about it."
There had been mass killings, yes. And they affected almost every family. But Khieu Samphan, former nominal head of the regime responsible for the killings, said Tuesday he could not explain this.
"I can't," he said. "That's what encouraged me to do research, and now I know it."
Khieu Samphan has published two books since the fall of the Khmer Rouge. His own research did not show that the Khmer Rouge was intent on killing its own people, he said.
"So, they need more research. That is just my own view. I just want to urge Cambodian people to learn more about their own history and do more research on the killing," he said. "I totally understand that almost every family was affected by the killing. That is completely true, but why did that happen?"
"You can put the blame on the Khmer Rouge because they governed the country, but what else besides that?" he continued. "Why did the killing happen? We suffered from all kinds of bad things, trying to escape B-52 bombing, so I mean we came all the way from all kinds of suffering just to kill our own people? That is why I was wondering. Don't just believe anything they say."
Human society is different from "insects," he said, which "do things according to instinct."
"People do not just follow what their leaders said," he said. "They can't just enter a crab hole according to a leader's order. They followed what is right, but not just anything, such as the case of rebellion in Samlot at that time. Why is that?"
The history of the Khmer Rouge needs more research, he said. Historians "got things right on B-52 bombardment, but they did not get the truth about Khmer Rouge mass killings."
The role of Cambodia's army fighting Cambodians "needs to be found out," he said, hinting that researchers had glossed over portions of history. "Unfortunately, researchers did not find that. I don't blame them, as they are foreigners. Instead, I appreciate the fact that they managed to achieve that amount of work. But I just want them to do more research on that."
Asked what principles were used by the Khmer Rouge to govern, Khieu Samphan said only, "law came from the party, and the party came from the struggle. And for the struggle to succeed, we needed people."
Without similar struggle principles, Mao Zedong could not have liberated China, so the principles were good, Khieu Samphan said.
"China would not have existed through today without Mao Zedong's contribution," Khieu Samphan said. "How poor was China in the past? How badly was China insulted by the French and the English? In Shanghai, in French and English homes, at the entrance there was always a sign saying, 'No dogs or Chinese.' And now look at China! Some countries are afraid that China will become a superpower. I guess it's just economically powerful. And now look at Vietnam after its liberation, how fast it developed its economy."
"So, it does not really matter if a country has a communist regime," he continued. "If we talk about Khmers, if we had managed to liberate our country and had smooth reconstruction, even if we endured some suffering, such as starvation, it would have been wrong, but it would have been good."
There were those who considered Cambodians who were "evacuated" from the cities "war victims," he said, "but my research suggested that there was a law decree about that at the time, and even Pol Pot himself at that time again and again said not to consider the evacuated as war victims."
"We need to make sure that we treat good people or hard working people well and those who opposed us accordingly," he said.
"Regarding the killing, suffering, and starvation, I think it was not Pol Pot who caused it," Khieu Samphan said. "He alone could not do it all. Pol Pot was in charge of investigating and arresting important cadre, probably hundreds of people, not thousands. The arrests kept increasing because these cadre had their own networks, conflicts, jealousy. That is why there were extrajudicial killing."
Eventually, he said, an expression emerged from eastern zones: "No gain in keeping, no loss in killing."
"I was just wondering where the words came from, because I never heard of this, even in the meeting of the Central Committee or the Permanent Committee," he said. "So it must have come from those regional leaders…who once lived with the Vietnamese."
Later, he said, he was "shocked" to hear that a starving person could be killed for stealing a yam.
"I did not know that until late 1989," he said, "when a Khmer Rouge soldier told me about it."
21 comments:
LOL, Khieu Samphan comparing KR regime to Communist China and Vietnam, hahaha, LOL, hahaha... .
his analyzation is correct. I belive he is telling the truth. Khieu Samphan wanted what was right for Cambodia. He still believes in a better Cambodia. If you fools think democracy would work in Cambodia, is it working right now? Cambodians do not possess the free will to obtain democracy yet, they need resources and capitalism first before they can reach democracy. I agree with this former KR leader. Pol Pot couldnt have orchestrated all the killings himself.
To me I don't believe this; as agood father should know everything about his children including his wife. When you said you did not know anything about your children and your wife you are not suitable as a father or a husband and not only that you also had led your whole family to destruction; you should be condemmed to be hung.
If the killings were solely done by Khmer maybe I can forgive them, but if the killings were done/conspired by foreigners I'm mad and cannot forgive and forget it. It'll be burning in my heart till my last breath.
I suffered like many of my Khmer fellows, I was a kid didn't understand why. But right now after a self search and self study I never believed one bit that those KR leaders/intellectuals were intentionally wanted to kill their own people. I concluded that it must be the foreign enemies that didn't want Pol Pot to succeed, big or small Hanoi did involved in the killing fields, there's no doubt in my mind.
There is truth in what Khieu Samphan said, at his age I see no reasons why he should not tell the truth. I know he wants to see Cambodia rises above the current circumstances. But it seemed that Cambodia is cursed since the start of its nationhood due to its geographical location.
If I were one of the Khmer Rouge leaders I would get a sharp knife to cut open my belly in front of the world. Because the KR leaders were so stupid and allowed themselves to be cheated by foreigners to kill to starve to cause crueltily suffering to their own people including a lot of my family members. If I were one of them I would be so shameful to live until today. As Khmer people should not be so coward and allowed themselves to be burned in hell. You better pay now rather than later or you might pay with a lot more interest accumulation on it. I suggest that like I said get a sharp knife cut out yourself now. To all current Khmer leaders now if you know that you have caused suffering to the nation you should punish yourself now then you would get less punishment in hell. Believe it or not soon or later it will come to get you for sure.
Stop playing dumb, you idiots! There is no foreigner in Cambodia to drag anyone out of the City into the farm and abused the hell out of them. It was all done by the westerner trained Pol Pot et al that included a bunch of Ah Khmer-Yuon criminals. That much is certain.
These fucking people would blame anyone for anything. Their intelligence level were so low that they wouldn't be able to run even their own families let alone run the country.
I think, in order to stop blaming on each other, the ECCC have arrest all former Khmer Rouge by starting from "leader group" and up to the top organization.
Because, most of the killing are at the low level of the organizations.
"His own research did not show that the Khmer Rouge was intent on killing its own people, he said"
By this point of view, you mean that the victims simply commit suicide, right? The way that you explain shows to us that you are only a bastard!
"He alone could not do it all. Pol Pot was in charge of investigating and arresting important cadre, probably hundreds of people, not thousands. The arrests kept increasing because these cadre had their own networks, conflicts, jealousy."
You have nourished hatred and incided a group of people against others by slogans and propaganda. You have said in your thesis that you can build up a "what you have said, brave new world" with only one million of Cambodian. All of what ever done by you and your gangs have engendred the mass killing, the bloodshed.
I supported the 5:59am ideas, but I disagreed with the 8:14am. He sounds very stupid and has no idea about Khmer people.The situation that happen during KR is course by Khmer Viet ming.
Well, 5:59 is wrong because Khieu Samphan had been reduced from leader of the regime to a lowlife-nobody by the foreigner; thus, he have very good reason to lie about foreigner as an attempt to drag them to hell along with him.
The bastard has no clues..still blaming others for his own actions. I am so enraged beyond limits that I want to slap the bastard in the head. Does he know what happended to those individuals that refused to craw into the crap holes? They are dead. And the only good thing came out of your revolution is I got to be a refugee.
to ah khmer idiots,
if you still don't understand that ah KR killed their own people you should die now. the regime was run by idiots like you who nothing but kill. one of the mistakes they made was not to destroy idiots like you.
Yes, and next time we won't let any of Ah Sarimatakist or Ah Khmer-Yuon to get away no more.
This is a tradition of some khmer leaders who are never be responsible for what they 've done/acted...
They balme foreigners.. neighbors VN China, French or US .....
'They wer not aware of killing..." this is the last word after no way to go ..."
Ask sihanouk he also knows well about this....
Excellency Achar Knoy
I'm a refugee and many of my family members were killed by KR. I remembered the dark clothes and dark skin Khmer soldiers who 75% were uneducated teenagers. Hate crime though from the top levels to the soldiers. I believe because of communist theory, killing all the city people by keeping a few millions farmers to work like slave for them. As long as you teah young teenage soldiers to hate the city people, mass killing will happen again.
Wrong, 10:58, you are confusing between communist and culture revolution.
Culture revolution is necessary if you want to implement your new vision for the country by force. And because you always have oppositions, it is necessary to kill a bunch of them opposition, rebels, or potential rebels in order to succeed.
On the other hand, Communist is just people united to build their country by contributing their equal share of work.
Accordingly, in reality, if you want to change from communist to capitalist or vice versa overnight, you have to go through a culture revolution. The only way to avoid it is to reform slowly, perhaps 10-15 years or so. Do you know what I mean?
Khieu Samphan, the man with the Ph.D. and the man whom Pol Pot put considerable stock to generate economic policies, which would help propel Cambodia forward.
His Thesis is currently sitting in France, and his Cambodia is sitting somewhere and firmly under the Vietnamese asses.
Through out our modern history and since the fall of the Khmer empire, we Khmer are unable to contest with our large neighbor Vietnam in any meaningful way.
It appears that every time, we confronted the Vietnamese, we lost. The Royalist lost in 1954 during the Geneva conference. The Vietnamese never fully withdraw from Cambodia. The Republicans got their asses whipped --their Chenla I and Chenla II were mauled by the Vietnamese backed Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Krahom was in turned was screwed... and lost a major propaganda war and the real shooting war to the Viet in less than 8 days. The Hun Sen government is nothing more than a puppet...that kowtows to the Vietnamese every wish and whim.
Why the has Cambodia always been beaten by the Vietnamese.
Perhaps the Vietnamese understand us and who we operate than we understand them and how they operate.
It seems that the Vietnamese loves Cambodia that has a dictatorship government and would do everything to undermine a democratic one. Why is that....?
"So it [the phrase "No gain in keeping, no loss in killing"]
must have come from those regional leaders…who once lived with the Vietnamese." Khieu Samphan
Vietnam should take note of Khieu Samphan's frequent references to it in his interview and elsewhere. There could be more truth to come about the bad relationships between Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge and their possible impact on the killings.
LAO Mong Hay, Hong Kong
It's because they're blood suckers.
Dr. Lao, Khieu Samphan only referring to Vietnam is because they destroyed his regime and his career.
I bet he would never said those things when he was fighting the Sarimatak's regime.
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