ABC Radio Australia
Cambodia's UN-backed special court, commonly known as the Khmer Rouge Tribunal, opens in Phnom Penh tomorrow.
The proceedings will be broadcast 'live' on Cambodian television .. and first up will be former prison chief, Kaing Guek Eav -- better known as Duch. The 66 year old faces charges of crimes against humanity, war crimes, torture and pre-meditated murder for his role in running S-21, a high school in Phnom Penh, transformed into a notorious prison. The communist Khmer Rouge seized control of Cambodia in April 1975 and immediately began dismantling modern society in their drive to transform the country into an agrarian utopia.
Presenter: Sen Lam
Speaker: Nic Dunlop, the man who tracked down Duch, and author of 'The Lost Executioner', published by Bloomsbury
DUNLOP: Well, I first went to Cambodia in 89, so it was exactly 10 years later that I stumbled on Duch in 1999, and of course, here we are ten years later and he is the first to go on trial. But the reason that I focused in on Duch is that he was a man at the centre of the killing, but also who had links to the leadership, so he could actually explain the chain of command and responsibility. At the same time, I wanted to understand the kind of pathology of somebody who could carry out horrific acts on a daily basis.
LAM: The general consensus is that Duch will be helpful to the ECCC or the Khmer Rouge Tribunal as it's commonly known because he confessed to his role at Tuol Sleng. Do you agree with that view point?
DUNLOP: Yes, from what I understand is that he's been more than cooperative and so he's actually remained true to what he told me in 1999, that he wanted the truth to be known about what happened.
LAM: What were your first impressions when you met Duch?
DUNLOP: I suppose one is incredulity, because on the one hand, yes I was looking for him and keeping an eye out for him, but then to find that he actually walked up to me in the end was a little startling. So it took a rather surreal quality. And I also did not know his position in the area that I met him at the time, so it was very difficult to ascertain as to whether he had actually left the Khmer Rouge police or special branch, which he used to head or whether he was simply as he claimed a school teacher.
LAM: So how did he strike you?
DUNLOP: I think he was a rather sort of eccentric figure. He was all and rather wiry looking I suppose and he extremely friendly, not perhaps the idea that a lot of people may have of a killer.
LAM: Indeed, someone once spoke about the ordinariness of evil and I am paraphrasing here. Did that strike you about Duch .. that he was perhaps, either willingly or not, part of this very evil process and yet seemed a most unlikely candidate?
DUNLOP: What's disturbing is how much we have in common. In fact, if we're really honest, we all carry the ability to carry out horrific acts with us all the time. It's just that we luckily for the vast majority of us have never been in a position where that has occurred. So I think the disturbing aspect of it is the fact that people like Duch are extremely ordinary. There is nothing that would suggest that they were necessarily killers immediately to you and that is where it becomes very, very disconcerting.
LAM: Did he speak to you about his time at Tuol Sleng at all?
DUNLOP: Yes, at the time he expressed what appeared to be genuine remorse. He said that I was very sorry for the killings and he felt that the truth about what had happened in Tuol Sleng and elsewhere should be made known to the world. It was an extraordinary confession and an extraordinary moment. But you also have to remember that this is tempered by the fact that the background to this is the death of thousands of innocent men, women and children. But just exactly how sorry he is or to what extent he will tell the truth remains to be seen.
LAM: You're listening to Connect Asia on Radio Australia. In Phnom Penh, we're heard on 101.5FM and in Vientianne 96 FM and this morning I am speaking with Nic Dunlop, author of the book "The Lost Executioner".
Nick Dunlop, how important is it for Cambodians that he acknowledges what he did?
DUNLOP: Incumbent I think that's very, very significant. It's very rare that you will meet people who you can say this in many cultures that people admit to wrongdoings and admit to extremely difficult things. I think that most people, everyone carries around with them bad memories that you would much rather pack away. To find somebody in a culture where it is not very reflective, in general, most people don't tend to analyse a great deal of their actions. I think it's extremely significant. All the Khmer Rouge to date, bar Duch, have shifted responsibility or made up excuses or other, but Duch is the only one who has actually spoken anything approaching the whole truth about what has happened.
LAM: How important is it do you think for the present generations of Cambodians, that this Khmer Rouge Tribunal, not just bring the perpetrators to justice, but also be seen to be bringing some kind of closure for the country?
DUNLOP: Well, my own view is that it is as important that the vast majority of the population, most of whom never experienced the Khmer Rouge, that they understand this process, why it's important, why it relates to them and their society and this is an area that I think the tribunal has yet to prove itself. So I think it's extremely important that it's understood beyond the walls of the actual tribunal itself. The trouble is that according to a recent report, 81 per cent of the population have little or no knowledge or understanding of the process, and I think that's a cause for serious concern. There is a danger that this whole process will become irrelevant.
LAM: Do you think it's important to broaden the hearings or do you think this is, even though it might be a symbolic gesture, symbolic process, that this in itself is better than nothing?
DUNLOP: I think it is better than nothing, but I do believe to have real credibility it's got to widen the net. There are many, many more people alive who are directly involved in the killings, indeed, there are at least two candidates for prosecution who have not been indited yet, who are directly responsible for sending people to Tuol Sleng and to Duch. So when you are holding only five to ten people accountable for crimes that were committed 30 years ago, that they understand why that is and the danger is that they don't. In fact, from my experience, they don't. I mean I think it's important to widen the net as much as is possible - certainly for the next tier of Khmer leaders who haven't .. or nobody as yet has been charged.
The proceedings will be broadcast 'live' on Cambodian television .. and first up will be former prison chief, Kaing Guek Eav -- better known as Duch. The 66 year old faces charges of crimes against humanity, war crimes, torture and pre-meditated murder for his role in running S-21, a high school in Phnom Penh, transformed into a notorious prison. The communist Khmer Rouge seized control of Cambodia in April 1975 and immediately began dismantling modern society in their drive to transform the country into an agrarian utopia.
Presenter: Sen Lam
Speaker: Nic Dunlop, the man who tracked down Duch, and author of 'The Lost Executioner', published by Bloomsbury
DUNLOP: Well, I first went to Cambodia in 89, so it was exactly 10 years later that I stumbled on Duch in 1999, and of course, here we are ten years later and he is the first to go on trial. But the reason that I focused in on Duch is that he was a man at the centre of the killing, but also who had links to the leadership, so he could actually explain the chain of command and responsibility. At the same time, I wanted to understand the kind of pathology of somebody who could carry out horrific acts on a daily basis.
LAM: The general consensus is that Duch will be helpful to the ECCC or the Khmer Rouge Tribunal as it's commonly known because he confessed to his role at Tuol Sleng. Do you agree with that view point?
DUNLOP: Yes, from what I understand is that he's been more than cooperative and so he's actually remained true to what he told me in 1999, that he wanted the truth to be known about what happened.
LAM: What were your first impressions when you met Duch?
DUNLOP: I suppose one is incredulity, because on the one hand, yes I was looking for him and keeping an eye out for him, but then to find that he actually walked up to me in the end was a little startling. So it took a rather surreal quality. And I also did not know his position in the area that I met him at the time, so it was very difficult to ascertain as to whether he had actually left the Khmer Rouge police or special branch, which he used to head or whether he was simply as he claimed a school teacher.
LAM: So how did he strike you?
DUNLOP: I think he was a rather sort of eccentric figure. He was all and rather wiry looking I suppose and he extremely friendly, not perhaps the idea that a lot of people may have of a killer.
LAM: Indeed, someone once spoke about the ordinariness of evil and I am paraphrasing here. Did that strike you about Duch .. that he was perhaps, either willingly or not, part of this very evil process and yet seemed a most unlikely candidate?
DUNLOP: What's disturbing is how much we have in common. In fact, if we're really honest, we all carry the ability to carry out horrific acts with us all the time. It's just that we luckily for the vast majority of us have never been in a position where that has occurred. So I think the disturbing aspect of it is the fact that people like Duch are extremely ordinary. There is nothing that would suggest that they were necessarily killers immediately to you and that is where it becomes very, very disconcerting.
LAM: Did he speak to you about his time at Tuol Sleng at all?
DUNLOP: Yes, at the time he expressed what appeared to be genuine remorse. He said that I was very sorry for the killings and he felt that the truth about what had happened in Tuol Sleng and elsewhere should be made known to the world. It was an extraordinary confession and an extraordinary moment. But you also have to remember that this is tempered by the fact that the background to this is the death of thousands of innocent men, women and children. But just exactly how sorry he is or to what extent he will tell the truth remains to be seen.
LAM: You're listening to Connect Asia on Radio Australia. In Phnom Penh, we're heard on 101.5FM and in Vientianne 96 FM and this morning I am speaking with Nic Dunlop, author of the book "The Lost Executioner".
Nick Dunlop, how important is it for Cambodians that he acknowledges what he did?
DUNLOP: Incumbent I think that's very, very significant. It's very rare that you will meet people who you can say this in many cultures that people admit to wrongdoings and admit to extremely difficult things. I think that most people, everyone carries around with them bad memories that you would much rather pack away. To find somebody in a culture where it is not very reflective, in general, most people don't tend to analyse a great deal of their actions. I think it's extremely significant. All the Khmer Rouge to date, bar Duch, have shifted responsibility or made up excuses or other, but Duch is the only one who has actually spoken anything approaching the whole truth about what has happened.
LAM: How important is it do you think for the present generations of Cambodians, that this Khmer Rouge Tribunal, not just bring the perpetrators to justice, but also be seen to be bringing some kind of closure for the country?
DUNLOP: Well, my own view is that it is as important that the vast majority of the population, most of whom never experienced the Khmer Rouge, that they understand this process, why it's important, why it relates to them and their society and this is an area that I think the tribunal has yet to prove itself. So I think it's extremely important that it's understood beyond the walls of the actual tribunal itself. The trouble is that according to a recent report, 81 per cent of the population have little or no knowledge or understanding of the process, and I think that's a cause for serious concern. There is a danger that this whole process will become irrelevant.
LAM: Do you think it's important to broaden the hearings or do you think this is, even though it might be a symbolic gesture, symbolic process, that this in itself is better than nothing?
DUNLOP: I think it is better than nothing, but I do believe to have real credibility it's got to widen the net. There are many, many more people alive who are directly involved in the killings, indeed, there are at least two candidates for prosecution who have not been indited yet, who are directly responsible for sending people to Tuol Sleng and to Duch. So when you are holding only five to ten people accountable for crimes that were committed 30 years ago, that they understand why that is and the danger is that they don't. In fact, from my experience, they don't. I mean I think it's important to widen the net as much as is possible - certainly for the next tier of Khmer leaders who haven't .. or nobody as yet has been charged.
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