Q&A: Cambodians Look Beyond Khmer Rouge Trials

Youk Chhang (Credit:Marwaan Macan-Markar/IPS)

Marwaan Macan-Markar interviews YOUK CHHANG, director, Documentation Centre of Cambodia

PHNOM PENH, Mar 27 (IPS) - While the trial of the notorious jailor of the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime is expected to break new legal ground in Cambodia, justice is not all that people here expect to come out of the war crimes tribunal.

It stems from the broad and, at times, differing views here about the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC), the United Nations-backed tribunal that seeks to try the surviving leaders of the Khmer Rouge, which brutalised this South-east Asian country during their rule from Apr. 17, 1975 - Jan. 16, 1979.

Kain Khek Eav, or ‘Duch’, was a key figure in the Khmer Rouge machine that was responsible for the deaths of 1.7 million people, nearly a quarter of the country’s population at that time. The victims were either executed or died of forced labour or starvation.

Duch was the chief jailor of Tuol Sleng, or S-21, as the extremist Maoist group called what was a high school in the Cambodian capital before it was turned into a prison. The victims, including children, were interrogated, tortured and killed. Only 11 people are known to have come out alive.

Duch’s trial, from Mar. 30 onwards, will offer Cambodians a moment that had appeared elusive for the past 30 years: to get a first hand account from the man who presided over the killing of between 12,380 to 14,000 people in S-21. Other unanswered questions are also expected to figure during the trial: who ordered the deaths, how the victims were killed, and why?

For the Documentation Centre of Cambodia (DC-Cam), the trial will be a reward for a 15-year search of evidence, testimonies and documents about Khmer Rouge atrocities that could be used in a war crimes tribunal such as the ECCC.

DC-Cam has recorded the accounts of nearly one million victims, identified the presence of 20,000 mass graves, got proof of 198 prisons like S-21, and also obtained statements from former members of the Khmer Rouge.

IPS correspondent Marwaan Macan-Markar interviewed Youk Chhang, director of DC-Cam), in his Phnom Penh office on the eve of this unprecedented tribunal.

IPS: With the Khmer Rouge trial finally getting underway, what kind of interest is there in the country after a 30-year wait for this very significant moment?

Youk Chhang: There are different levels of interest among the Cambodians. The level of reservation, a wait-and-see attitude to judge the tribunal, is very high. But I think most people want to see justice done. The ECCC is the last solution for the Khmer Rouge genocide.

IPS: Is it about justice or does the trial offer something more? Should the tribunal offer something more?

YC: There has to be something more. I think it is about our country’s future, where people can feel satisfied with the process and the outcome of the trail about what happened during the Khmer Rouge period, and then move on with their lives. We will get a sense of that as the trial proceeds, since the people suffered so much in the past.

The tribunal offers a chance for the survivors and the Cambodians born after the Khmer Rouge period to learn about that terrible period in our country’s history from those who were directly involved in it. They will get to know why and how decisions were made for Cambodians to kill other Cambodians on such a massive scale. Cambodians are still ashamed of the Khmer Rouge history.

IPS: But one gets the feeling when talking to people here that Cambodians are divided on this issue of what is the best outcome to ‘’move on with their lives,’’ as you say. Will we see more divisions in the months ahead?

YC: I agree that the people are divided on how they view the tribunal and what they want to see coming out of it. There is a different opinion here in what each group means by justice at the trial. The overseas Cambodians have one demand for justice, the ones who stayed back have another view, the prime minister has his own view, the former Khmer Rouge leaders want it a different way, and my mother wants it a different way.

IPS: So there is even a difference of views within your family?

YC. Not mine only. I think you will find it among other families too. In our case, my mother has forgiven the Khmer Rouge village chief who ordered the death of my sister. He went to my mother’s house with a gift of bananas after the Khmer Rouge was defeated to ask forgiveness. She accepted it as karma, you know, a very Buddhist way of viewing the situation.

IPS: What happened to your sister?

YC: She was accused of eating stolen rice and was killed. Her husband was beaten to death before that. Two of their three children, a boy and girl, three years and one year, died due to starvation. But one daughter, who was five years then, survived. And we had to create stories to stop her from crying when she missed her parents. But those stories were not true.

My niece who has lived in the U.S. for nearly 30 years refuses to come back. She doesn’t believe in the tribunal, she says it will not ensure justice. She says everything in Cambodia is an illusion. She has felt that way after finding the truth about her parents.

IPS: So how can the tribunal convince people like your niece and the many Cambodians who are sceptics?

YC: The process has to appear credible. And the people should feel through the tribunal that they are in charge of their history. But there is also an obligation for the victims to take responsibility and help this process. They have to help confirm the brutality of the Khmer Rouge.

IPS: And you, personally?

YC: Our organisation has been gathering evidence since 1995 to help such a tribunal. It is raw data that all parties can access. But what I want, from the end of it all, is to see an end to being viewed as a victim. The ‘Duch’ trial should help draw that line, to define us as no longer victims. I don’t want that, hate that, want to move on. I want to be just known as Youk Chhang.