Article by Madhusree Chatterjee Concerning Indian Relationship with Ho Chi Minh City
Dear Mr. Madhusree Chatterjee,
( e-mail: madhu.c@ians.in)
I would like to bring to your attention the multiple errors I found in your article “South Indians were the ancient money bags in Vietnam's Ho Chi Minh city (IANS Books)” that was posted in the Khmerization website (http://khmerization.blogspot.com/2010/03/mr-geetesh-sharma-get-your-history.html)
and KI-Media blog
(http://ki-media.blogspot.com/2010/03/mr-geetesh-sharma-get-your-history.html#links).
It was historically inaccurate when you stated that India’s relationship with Ho Chi Minh City dated back to over 2000 years. Furthermore, you erroneously stated that “The Vietnamese adaptation of Ramayana, 'Ms Sita', is woven around the lives of local prince Po Liem, a local version of king Rama and his wife Sita”.
Firstly, Ho Chi Minh City and Vietnam did not exist in the southern part of Southeast Asia two centuries ago. Until about the 15th century, the southern frontier of Vietnam extended only as far as the northern frontier of Champa (Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa). After Vietnam conquered Champa (a Hindu state that later converted to Islam) around the 15th century, it continued its marched further south by taking over the southeastern part of the Khmer empire (known as Kampuchea Krom, meaning Lower Cambodia. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Krom) in the 17th century, which is the current South Vietnam that includes Ho Chi Minh City. Kampuchea Krom did not fully become a Vietnamese state until 1954 after the French awarded the Khmer territory and granted independence to Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh City was previously called Prey Nokor (meaning Forest City) by Khmer people when Kampuchea Krom was still a Khmer territory.
Secondly, the Ramayana play that you mentioned was not performed by the Vietnamese but rather by the Cambodians (known as Khmer Krom) who numbered about 14 million people and still living in South Vietnam today. The adaptation of the Hindu epic Ramayana is called Reamke in Khmer (http://www.khmerthesis.com/index.php/tutorials-mainmenu-34/social-sciences/history/67-reamke-in-khmer-culture.html). Our Khmer Krom people are currently being persecuted by the Vietnamese authority.
I would like to recommend the following books for your reading about the relationship between the Khmer Empire and India. These books were written by historians who were/are experts in Southeast Asian history. Just to name a few, I would like to recommend you the following books:
I would like to recommend the following books for your reading about the relationship between the Khmer Empire and India. These books were written by historians who were/are experts in Southeast Asian history. Just to name a few, I would like to recommend you the following books:
1. By the Indian historian NN Bhattacharya Adhir Chakravati
a) India and South East Asia Socio-Econo-Cultural Contacts (1998)
b) Royal Succession In Ancient Cambodia: The Asiatic Society Monograph Series (ISBN: 003987-153)
c) New Light on Saiva Tantrika Texts Known in Ancient Cambodia (Journal of the Asiatic Society, Vol XV, Nos 1-4, Calcutta, 1973)
2. By the French historian and epigraphy George Coedès:
a) The Indianized States of Southeast Asia
3. By the United States Consul in Indochina Lawrence Palmer Briggs:
a) The Ancient Khmer Empire
4. By the American historian Professor John F. Cady of Ohio University:
a) Southeast Asia: Its Historical Development
I hope that after reading these books you would be kind enough to make a correction concerning the erroneous statements you made in your article.
Sincerely Yours,
Kenneth So
Aryasatya (Sanskrit)
Chattari Ariyasachchani (Pali)
Chatuk Arey Sachak (Khmer)
The Four Noble Truths (English)
Monday, March 08, 2010
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
28 comments:
Great article, Kenneth So; thanks for sharing.
I think khmer history would have been different had King Jayvarman not left Champa and returned to Cambodia from his exile around the 12th century. Upon his return to the Khmer Kingdom, Jayvarman and his men recaptured the then Angkor city from the Siems invasion. Unfortunately, he had no desire to return to Champa to defend its state against the Viets. The war between Champa and Vietnam went on for many years until the Chams got defeated, resulting in the annexation of Champa to Vietnam.
Very great points Mr. Kenneth So for being a Khmer scholar that fight back these stupid authors and historians.
Thanks,
J7 HIMSELF PLAYED A MJOR PART IN THE DOWNFALL OF CHAMPA BY WAGING WARS OFTEN AGAINST CHAMPA
That could be some thing made up by the Viets, or the man was paid to do the writing for the Viets. That is more likely a Viets propaganda. This shameless low life race is full of tricks.
The Viets know the harm they have done to the Khmer Krom and they would diligently find any thing to benefit their criminal act. What do they have to say about the land of Champa above Kampuchea Krom?
the writer is just flute player of cobra dancing around vietnam and eating dog meat with viets.
STUPID WRITER OR AUTHOR!!!!
No wonder Chinese doesn't like Indian!!
7:59am, according to history books by khmer history experts, king jayavarman 7 was staying in champa will there were internal conflict at angkor wat due to the power struggle between the royal families at angkor. then it was champa, not siem, like you mentioned, that sacked angkor and occupied it for a couple of years. then, king jayavarman 7, already in his 60s returned to angkor to fight off the champa army, not siem, like you said. please quote history correctly, ok.
as for 8:58am, i agree with you that, in a direct way, it was khmer war with champa, then, that, indirectly brought that ancient kingdom to exinction which later the viet/youn moved down southernly and annexed permanently the champa kingdom. and from there, viet/youn continue to stake claims toward the present-day so-called khmer krom area of prey nokor and the rest of the mekong river. however, it wasn't finalized until after france had colonized both cambodia and viet/youn that france granted independence to youn to include khmer krom land or the present-day mekong delta area of khmer krom to be administered by viet/youn until today. please quote history correctly. thanks.
Another outstanding written piece by Mr. Kenneth So. Thanks goodness for his contribution. His great knowledge of the Khmer related information is simply awesome. Thank you Mr. Kenneth So.
I adore Kenneth So. He writes with support from facts (History).
Hanoi is doing everything it could to bribe others and to falsefy the Khmer history. India with a population is about to pass China, not much land to put the more than one billion people is trying to play Hanoi games. We all can see how India is trying to do to Khmers.
I now support the word Yuon that refers to Vietnamese is properly used.
Ps: Yuon and Indian are secretely working together to beat China, no wonder thie falsefy history of Khmers by this Indian is like an eerie midnight howl.
Damn Yuon damn son of bitch Yuon and Indians. Can't trust any body.
Every body wants Cambodia for themselves. Damn it.
i know, it seems like everyone wants cambodia, our precious khmer land. why? they all need to respect our country, really!
YUON TAKES ONE DAY AT A TIME...
1st AN NAN > DEI VIET
2nd CHAMPA > VIETNAM
3rd KHMER KROM > SOUTH VIETNAM
4th ARE WE NEXT? > :[
thank god our history was recorded and thoroughly researched by historians since long time ago. now, when some enemies of cambodia want to change or distort the facts. we all can refer them to read books by the historians with expertise in khmer history and so forth. god bless cambodia.
i doubt if viet/youn continue to steal from cambodia again. back then, it the world was in the dark ages compare to nowadays, there are lots of international law, educated people, etc, etc...i'm sure if youn still greedy, this time they might lose more than what they bargain for as no nation will tolerate occupation by an illegal thug-like nation on another, really!
Why? They all want Kampuchea >>>TREASURES<<< artifact, tonle sap, beach and etc. That means more tourists pouring in every single day.
India, Russia, Vietnam were cold war allies...it is strange now that America may have to be in the pact because of China's rising status.
I hope my beloved USA will do right to my birth country, Cambodia.
What if Cambodia had signed a security pact with China and allowed just 300,000 chinese people's army men to be permanently stationed inside Cambodia and armed them with the latest weapons chinese engineers could make or the renminbi can buy? How will the Viet and US react? Far-fetched, but imaginable.
Sihanouk had to do it (decided to get in bed with the Chairman) because he had no other choice for survival; which to his credits, he made the best choice of finding respect and loyalty...
No, the collapse of Khmer empire in the 12 century was also affected by the expansion of Mongolian power worldwide and the establishment of Yuon Dynasty ( 1279-1368) in China which have covered the present China. That expansion has eliminated Nan Chao Kingdom and has let Nan Chao people and their King to take refugee in Cambodia. The Sakhothais has declared a separatist within Cambodia in 1238. To make peace with Mongol emperor Cambodian king has killed Cambodian people to supply Mongol Emperor with human organs ( From Dr Keng Vansak interview with RFA ).
Each time Cambodia has fallen because of their bad leaders.
Areak Prey
11:35 AM,
At least I see you can learn how to play chess whle many are still dumb. King Norodom Sihanouk is no dumb as some of you who play Yuon games think. There is a very good move he is with China like him or not the US is weak and weaker.
What this Indian try to falsefy Khmer history is so obvious, because India is the US's ally. Why the US didn't act against China directly after Hun Sen sent Chinese refugees back to China to be executed and after China built DAMS to stop water from flowing to south Nations?
The problems in SEA caused by Yuon the most not by China.
Now what??? I never forgot China invasion in Vietnam in 1979 signaled by Reagan. It is not easy to follow the politics, unless the politicians have to move up sleeves fast and act fast.
To see Khmers like Kennet So and Touch Bora can stand strong with their chins up high agaisnt our enemies I am so happy with the outcomes.
Kenneth So, Touch Bora are real Khmers not some spies pretend to be Khmers but dividing Khmers.
the scenario above (11:35 AM) would not be far-fetched imagination any longer if, let's say, India and Viet announced they are collaborating in addressing Viet's "increasing energy needs" and considering "building civilian nuclear reactors" in Hanoi...
Don't forget that Yuon Hanoi plays so many games to survive and to keep its expansionism alive.
Yuon aims at Thailand for a long time now this is the time Yuon are acting so aggressively.
Why Siems and Khmers are fighting not uniting? Yuon caused them to fight. As long as Siems and Khmers who share the same culture fight with each others Yuon will take Thailand.
Yuon are so afraid if Siems and Khmers unite. Abhisit and Hun Sen play Yuon Hanoi's games. They both are the losers
There are more than a billion Indians and only one stupid, I think they are still O.K.
The history of SE Asia is so complex and turbulent, involving the rise and fall of many empires and population movements over thousands of years, so all sides are easily capable of making historical errors.
Kenneth So makes some valid points, but I would take issue with him when he writes:
"Kampuchea Krom did not fully become a Vietnamese state until 1954 after the French awarded the Khmer territory and granted independence to Vietnam."
As Kenneth himself writes one sentence earlier, Viet Nam actually took over Kampuchea Krom in the 17th century. Therefore Khmer Krom became effectively part of Viet Nam long before the French even arrived on the scene.
The Vietnam Cultural Profile website:
“....As early as 1623 the Nguyễn had married into the Khmer royal family, enabling them to establish a customs house at Prei Nokor (later Gia Định-Sài Gòn). Thereafter they brought increasing military pressure to bear on the Khmers, leading in 1749 to the cession of the lower Mekong Delta (Kampuchea Krom) to Việt Nam....”
Therefore, Viet Nam’s Nguyen lords had already consolidated their administrative control over Kampuchea Krom, well before the French even began their colonial conquest after 1858.
French colonialism set the borders of Indochina more or less as we know them today, accepting the existing status quo.
In order to “divide and conquer”, the French colonialists divided Viet Nam into 3 zones (north, centre and south) to try to break the strong spirit of Vietnamese national identity. One of these was the French southern colony of Cochin-China (Kampuchea Krom).
When Viet Nam declared its independence from France in 1945 (not 1954), it was always assumed that Cochin-China was an inseparable part of Viet Nam.
Therefore, the French did not "award" Kampuchea Krom to Viet Nam in 1954, (as stated by Kenneth), or any other time. Furthermore, in 1954 the French did not "award" or "grant" anything - they were humiliatingly defeated by the Viet Minh and ended their colonialism in all of Indochina.
Pol Pot later used racism and ultra-nationalism to reopen old sores in the relationship between Viet Nam & Cambodia for his own cynical political purposes, with disastrous results.
It would be a great tragedy if we allow the mistakes of the past to be repeated again now.
This is another historical lesson we need to learn, or never forget, for the sake of the future of the peoples of both countries.
http://lemonjuicebruce.blogspot.com/
why care over few fuken ousi cronies?
Hey McPho,
Stick to your Nuoc Mam, okay?
Democratic Kampuchea Pol Pot Khmer Rouge Regime
Members:
Pol Pot
Nuon Chea
Ieng Sary
Ta Mok
Khieu Samphan
Son Sen
Ieng Thearith
Kaing Kek Iev
Hun Sen
Chea Sim
Heng Samrin
Hor Namhong
Keat Chhon
Ouk Bunchhoeun
Sim Ka...
Committed:
Tortures
Brutality
Executions
Massacres
Mass Murder
Genocide
Atrocities
Crimes Against Humanity
Starvations
Slavery
Force Labour
Overwork to Death
Human Abuses
Persecution
Unlawful Detention
Cambodian People's Party Hun Sen Khmer Rouge Regime
Members:
Hun Sen
Chea Sim
Heng Samrin
Hor Namhong
Keat Chhon
Ouk Bunchhoeun
Sim Ka...
Committed:
Attempted Murders
Attempted Murder on Chea Vichea
Attempted Assassinations
Attempted Assassination on Sam Rainsy
Assassinations
Assassinated Journalists
Assassinated Political Opponents
Assassinated Leaders of the Free Trade Union
Assassinated over 80 members of Sam Rainsy Party.
"But as of today, over eighty members of my party have been assassinated. Countless others have been injured, arrested, jailed, or forced to go into hiding or into exile."
Sam Rainsy LIC 31 October 2009 - Cairo, Egypt
Executions
Executed over 100 members of FUNCINPEC Party
Murders
Murdered 3 Leaders of the Free Trade Union
Murdered Chea Vichea
Murdered Ros Sovannareth
Murdered Hy Vuthy
Murdered Journalists
Murdered Khim Sambo
Murdered Khim Sambo's son
Murdered members of Sam Rainsy Party.
Murdered activists of Sam Rainsy Party
Murdered Innocent Men
Murdered Innocent Women
Murdered Innocent Children
Killed Innocent Khmer Peoples.
Extrajudicial Execution
Grenade Attack
Terrorism
Drive by Shooting
Brutalities
Police Brutality Against Monks
Police Brutality Against Evictees
Tortures
Intimidations
Death Threats
Threatening
Human Abductions
Human Abuses
Human Rights Abuses
Human Trafficking
Drugs Trafficking
Under Age Child Sex
Corruptions
Bribery
Embezzlement
Treason
Border Encroachment, allow Vietnam to encroaching into Cambodia.
Signed away our territories to Vietnam; Koh Tral, almost half of our ocean territory oil field and others.
Illegal Arrest
Illegal Mass Evictions
Illegal Land Grabbing
Illegal Firearms
Illegal Logging
Illegal Deforestation
Illegally use of remote detonation bomb on Sokha Helicopter, while Hok Lundy and other military officials were on board.
Lightning strike many airplanes, but did not fall from the sky. Lightning strike out side of airplane and discharge electricity to ground.
Source: Lightning, Discovery Channel
Illegally Sold State Properties
Illegally Removed Parliamentary Immunity of Parliament Members
Plunder National Resources
Acid Attacks
Turn Cambodia into a Lawless Country.
Oppression
Injustice
Steal Votes
Bring Foreigners from Veitnam to vote in Cambodia for Cambodian People's Party.
Use Dead people's names to vote for Cambodian People's Party.
Disqualified potential Sam Rainsy Party's voters.
Abuse the Court as a tools for CPP to send political opponents and journalists to jail.
Abuse of Power
Abuse the Laws
Abuse the National Election Committee
Abuse the National Assembly
Violate the Laws
Violate the Constitution
Violate the Paris Accords
Impunity
Persecution
Unlawful Detention
Death in custody.
Under the Cambodian People's Party Hun Sen Khmer Rouge Regime, no criminals that has been committed crimes against journalists, political opponents, leaders of the Free Trade Union, innocent men, women and children have ever been brought to justice.
10:52pm or Bruce Mcphie,
As I noted in my earlier post, khmer history would have been completely different from what it is today had King Jayvarman permanently lived and stayed in Champa to lead his army to fight the Viets but he had no desire to do so. He returned to the Khmer Empire to build magnificent monuments such as Angkorwat and Bayon temple.
Also, had Jayvarman lived in Champa long enough, he would have led his army to repel the viets and Champa would still remain a country of its own today.
The 6:31 comment was not from Bruce McPhie
With due respect to Mr. Bruce McPhie, even though Vietnam consolidated their administrative control over Kampuchea Krom, Cambodians were not staying idle. They were still fighting the Vietnamese with the aid of Thailand trying to chase the Vietnamese out of Cambodia proper as well as trying to regain Kampuchea Krom. The early 1840's were filled with seasawing warfare and negotiations between the Thais and the Vietnamese and by a gradual shift in the balance of power in Cambodia in favor of the Thais. The Vietnamese were surprised by the level of coordination among the resistants. Cambodia never accepted Kampuchea Krom as part of Vietnam. Then came the French who colonized Indochina (Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos). Before the French colonized Indochina, Cambodians were still fighting the Vietnamese. It was the French who made it "official" that Kampuchea Krom became part of Vietnam.
For those who are interested, the following are the names of Khmer provinces and cities in Kampuchea Krom before they were changed to Vietnamese names:
1. The province of Prey Kor became Gia Dinh.
2. Kampeap Sroka Trey (fish scale) became Bien Hoa.
3. Batiyea became Baria Phsar Dek (market of iron) became Sadec.
4. Po Leuh became Bac Lieu.
5. Tuk Khmau (black water) became Camau.
6. Bay Chhau (raw rice) became Bay Xau.
7. Peam Mean Chey (confluence of victory) became My Thang.
8. Srok Trang became Soctrang.
9. Peam Me Sen (river of sacrifice) became Donnayngai.
10. Kramoun Sar (white wax) became Rach Gia.
11. Prek Roeussey (river of bamboo) became Can Thoeu.
12. Au Mor (inderground brook) became O Mon in the district of Can Thoeu.
13. Kampoul Meas (golden summit) became Binh Thuy.
14. Moat Chrouk (pig mouth) became Chaudoc.
15. Barach (excommunicated) became Long Xuyen.
16. Muonh Kham became Hatien province.
17. Peam (river mouth) became Hatien.
18. Preah Tapeang (sacred pond) became Tra Vinh.
19. Kompong Roeussey (shore of bamboos) became Vinh Long.
20. Long Hor (drowned diviner) became Vinh Long.
21. Kompong Ko (shore of cows) became Truong An and then Tan An.
22. Ban Lech became Ben Luc.
23. Raung Damrey (elephants stable ) became Tay Ninh.
24. Koh Tralach (isle of Chinese squash) became Poulo Condor.
25. Koh Tral (isle of shuttle) became Phu Quoc.
26. Phnom Youk became Nui Ca Vuse.
27. Peam Choeung Kanchoeu (mouth of river at the foot of Kanchoeu tree) became Cangio (Cap Saint Jacques).
28. Choeuteal Muoy Doeum (One Choeuteal tree)became Thudaumot.
29. Banteay Chis Roeussey (fort of mould bamboos) became Hong Nguyen.
30. Kompong Koh Krabey (shore of isle of water buffalos) became Ben Nghe.
31. Psar Thom (big market) became Cholen.
32. Kanghva Dak Peang (harpoon placing the jar) became Bian Hoa.
33. Daung Nay (rejected coconut) became Tong Thanh and then Dong Nai
34. Prey Nokor (Forest city) became Saigon then Ho Chi Minh City.
Post a Comment