Monday, September 17, 2012

The long tragedy of Cham history

by Jean-Michel Filippi

Many chams or 'Khmer Islam' had traditionally lived on mobile house-boats like this one along many of the country's waterways deriving their livelihoods from fishing. However, since 1979 they along with ethnic Khmers have had to face fierce competition from ethnic Vietnamese fishermen for fisheries as sources of income and protein supplement. At least in this economic context of struggle for physical survival the Vietnamese, ancient exterminators of the Champa people and nation, are still persecuting and harassing the chams even in their exile from their 'native Champa' in central Vietnam - School of Vice [google image]
“Let’s get back to the first centuries of the Common Era. Knowing that Chinese, Burmese, Lao and Thai are relatively new in the Southeast Asian landscape, the biggest part of the peninsula was peopled by Austro-Asiatic (or Mon Khmer) ethnic groups. This means that Khmer and related groups (Mon, Kui, Bahnar) were certainly the oldest inhabitants of the peninsula.”
“The process [‘Nam Tien’ or Vietnamese southward expansion] was well defined by Léopold Cadière in 1911: “As soon as they feel themselves able, they drive off the first inhabitants, whether in a peaceful manner, by taking over the land, clearing it and “planting the bamboo” – the hedges that to this day still surround Annamese gardens and villages – or by violence, then they fight with the Chams, destroying their temples and mutilating their statues.” In short, there was no room left for the Chams.”

The Khmer empire, from the ninth to the 15th century, obviously didn’t develop in isolation. But, looking at the map of Southeast Asia from a historical point of view, it’s nevertheless clear that this political construction benefited from an unprecedented geopolitical quietness, at least until the 13th century. The Vietnamese hadn’t even begun their march to the south, and the Thai state was made up of embryonic chieftainships.

Yet the exception that proved the rule occurred. In the year 1177, guided by a Chinese deserter, the Cham fleet sailed the Mekong river upstream and from Phnom Penh, the Tonle Sap. They took Angkor by surprise, plundering and destroying the town. They quickly withdrew and, from 1181, under the leadership of the future Jayavarman VII, the Khmers won the war against the kingdom of Champa, which was soon reduced to a vassal state of the Khmer empire.

For the Khmer empire, military recovery was one thing; spiritual recovery was something else. If the very heart of the empire could be so easily struck, there were spiritual causes that couldn’t be ignored. Under the rule of Jayavarman VII, the Khmer empire was the theater of the most dramatic religious shift in Khmer history as the new religion became Mahayana Buddhism. It replaced the Hindu religion, which had proved unable to protect the empire.  Hindu gods still existed, but were submitted to the Mahayana Buddha. The temple of Angkor Wat was still there, but was no longer the axis of the world; that was now the Bayon. Who were those Cham who were able to disrupt a mighty empire?

The beginning of a long history
If we look at a current map of peninsular and insular Southeast Asia, we notice no fewer than nine countries. But the borders between these countries don’t tell us anything about the region’s ethno-linguistic components. The situation has become more and more complicated over the centuries.

Let’s get back to the first centuries of the Common Era. Knowing that Chinese, Burmese, Lao and Thai are relatively new in the Southeast Asian landscape, the biggest part of the peninsula was peopled by Austro-Asiatic (or Mon Khmer) ethnic groups. This means that Khmer and related groups (Mon, Kui, Bahnar) were certainly the oldest inhabitants of the peninsula.

There is, however, an exception: a large blot in what is now central Vietnam where another ethno-linguistic group dominates. This group, named Austronesian or Malayo-Polynesian, is composed of a number of peoples such as Jarai, Rhade, Koho and Cham who speak closely related languages that have nothing to do with the Austro-Asiatic group. This presence seems paradoxical. Austro-Asiatic languages are spoken on the mainland with the recent exception of Malay. As concerns Austronesian languages, they are spoken in the Pacific from Easter Island to Madagascar and from Borneo to Papua. So, another Cham exception? Yes and no, because we now know, thanks to the works of Bellwood and Thurgood that: “The Austronesian speaking group settled on the coast of Vietnam from an earlier homeland in perhaps Malaya or, more likely, Borneo, some time before 600 BC.”

From tribes to kingdom
As for the presumably Khmer kingdom of Funan (1st – 7th century), our knowledge of Champa comes from Chinese sources that gave us an account of Lin Yi.
Lin Yi, also known by its Cham name Indrapura, was a Cham principality together with Amaravati, Vijaya, Kauthera and Panduranga, which stretched from the northern part of Annam (in central Vietnam) to northern Cochinchina (South Vietnam). All these principalities were Indianised states, and as such inherited from India state conception, art, religion (Hinduism and later Buddhism) and script. Cham script has the same origins as Khmer and Mon scripts.

By the fifth century, Champa (Lin Yi) was developed enough to raid Vietnamese settlements in what is now northern Vietnam with war fleet of more than 100 ships. Ancient Champa can be best understood through its artistic remnants from the fifth to the 15th century. We can still admire the temple of Po Nagar, near Nha Trang, or the site of Po Klaung Garai, near Phan Rang. As the coast was heavily bombed during the Vietnam war, we often have to content ourselves with drawings and old photographs taken by early French scholars who were the first to study Cham civilisation. Cham sandstone statuary can still be admired in the museum of Cham sculpture in Da Nang or in the Guimet museum in Paris. Beautiful sculptures in the round, bas-relief and the most remarkable haut-relief of Southeast Asia are still here to show the greatness of Cham civilization. From an artistic point of view, in Southeast Asia these Cham masterpieces can only be compared to Khmer statues in the National museum of Phnom Penh.
12th century Shiva high-relief
The loss of a kingdom
Nowadays, more than 80,000 Cham people still live in central Vietnam. Many of them still speak the Cham language and still worship Hindu gods, but the land inhabited by their ancestors is now but a ghost kingdom. They are what remain of a once-mighty kingdom that over 1000 years has faced the tenacity of the Vietnamese conquest. The history of Champa can be read in parallel with the Vietnamese march to the south (Nam Tien).

In the early century of the Common Era, the first Vietnamese state (Dai Viet, which roughly corresponds to current Tonkin) had already reached prosperity through the dyking-up of the banks of the Red River. The Vietnamese defeated the Chinese army in 938 AD, marking the end of 1000 years of Chinese domination; from then, a new independent Vietnamese state could launch its Nam Tien, which was soon to become the nightmare of Cham history.

The traditional warfare pattern in Southeast Asia generally aimed at conquering and dominating sparse populations, using their skills in irrigated rice fields, arts and crafts. Nothing of the kind happened in the Vietnamese Nam Tien. This Vietnamese expansion down south was intended as a populating colonisation. The process was well defined by Léopold Cadière in 1911: “As soon as they feel themselves able, they drive off the first inhabitants, whether in a peaceful manner, by taking over the land, clearing it and “planting the bamboo” – the hedges that to this day still surround Annamese gardens and villages – or by violence, then they fight with the Chams, destroying their temples and mutilating their statues.” In short, there was no room left for the Chams. In 1471, Vijaya, the Cham capital was stormed by the Vietnamese. Therefore, it was not the end of Champa which was much more a confederation of principalities than a unified state. According to the Cham scholar Po Dharma, a lively Cham state existed in the south till 1835. In parallel with the Vietnamese progression down south, the Cham fled overseas, to the isle of Hainan, to the Malay Peninsula and Sumatra and to Cambodia.

The early history of the Cham in Cambodia is far from being clear. To begin with, were the Cham Muslims at the time of their emigration to Cambodia? Scholars have pointed out evidence that Champa had contacts with the Muslim world as early as the 9th century. A group of Muslim Chams are still living in Central Vietnam although they are a minority; there the majority still goes on worshipping Hindu religion. It is then plausible that prior to take refuge in Cambodia a part of the Cham population had already converted to Islam. The fact that today all the Cambodian Chams are Muslims led most of scholars to the conclusion that the conversion of the majority of Chams actually took place in Cambodia. The Chvea (literally Javanese), a large Muslim population, were already living in Cambodia in the 15th century; their origin is unclear as nowadays they all speak Khmer and don’t have a language of their own. It is probably to their contact that the Chams converted to Islam.

The Cham were given by the Udong Monarchy (1601 – 1865) titles and land to settle. After the fall of Vijaya, no less than 3 big migrations to Cambodia occurred: in 1692, 1796 and 1830 – 1835, each of them corresponding to a major Vietnamese push down south. The Chams then deprived of their country were, as they often say, living in someone else’s house. This doesn’t mean that they had renounced having their own state, as their history in Cambodia was punctuated with several attempts to build a Cham state. The last of these short-lived attempts took place during the reign of King Ang Duong (1847-1860) and was severely repressed.

Modern times
It was at the time of the French protectorate (1863-1953) that modern Cham studies were pioneered in Vietnam and in Cambodia by scholars such as Aymonier and Cabaton who were also administrators. French protectorate also marks the beginning of a marginalisation of Cambodian Chams, who were not enthusiastic about sending their children to French schools. French schooling was broadly viewed as a threat to Muslim identity. Without the adequate degrees, the Chams could not take part in political and administrative life.
a group of Cham at the turn of the century
Sihanouk’s years (1955-1970) defined a new attitude towards the Chams who were named “Khmer Islam”. The implications of this have been well perceived by William Collins when he wrote that: “Anyone using the term “Khmer Islam” is aware that the Cham-Malay community is ethnically different from the Khmers. They speak languages related to Malay, they look abroad for their ancestral homeland. They vigorously maintain their distinctive identity, separate from Khmers, by professing Islam, which prohibits intermarriage with non-Muslims. This separation is reinforced by numerous ritual practices that contrast sharply with those of the Khmer majority community. Again, the indelible difference implied by Islam makes assimilation to Khmer ethnicity an impossibility, which suggests that the term “Khmer Islam” points to a feature of the Cambodian nation, that it includes Muslims among its diverse peoples.”

The Khmer republic (1970-1975) was the theatre for the emergence of new geopolitical conception in which the Chams happened to have an interesting part to play. In the 1940s, the French authorities had promised to grant autonomy to the “Montagnards”, ethnic groups living in the highlands of Vietnam. There was even a secret project of independence. In such a case, what is today Vietnam would have been split into at least two parts: coastal Vietnam and highlands. Due to the first Indochinese conflict, which ended with the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu, these projects went unheeded.

The very idea was revived by the United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races (FULRO). Born in 1964, certainly with the support of the American Special Forces, FULRO has been playing for 10 years the part of a real army at the service of the South Vietnamese minorities. FULRO is a real ideological hodgepodge with demands for autonomy or independence, new borders… Republican Cambodia displayed a real interest in the FULRO through his high ranking Cham officers and particularly General Les Kosem. Also known by his war name Po Nagar, this outstanding character had already become famous through the creation of the Champa Liberation Front (CLF) in 1950s. He had also been a key figure in the setting of the FULRO and in establishing official links between the Khmer Republic and Cham nationalists. For him the second Indochinese conflict was an ideal opportunity to recreate a Cham state and in 1971 a Cham delegation representing the newly proclaimed Cham state was welcome in Phnom Penh in great pomp. At that time a new Khmer republican map was drawn with a new frontier between Cambodia (including Cochinchina) and Champa.

This last attempt to revive Champa was but short-lived. In April 17 1975, Khmer Rouge entered Phnom Penh and the 3 years 9 months and 20 days which were going to follow (Democratic Kampuchea) are amongst the most terrifying episodes the 20th century can offer. More than two million Cambodians lost their lives because of starvation, lack of medicines and executions. According to Craig Etcheson, execution is believed to have accounted for 30 to 50 per cent of the death toll. The Khmer Rouge killed about 125,000 Chams, which amounts to half of the Cambodian Cham population. Most of scholars agree on these facts. What is subject to disagreement lies in the analysis of the perpetrators’ motives. Were the Chams peculiarly targeted as a religious or ethnic group to create an ethnic uniformity? In such a case, Democratic Kampuchea (DK) could be accused of having implemented genocide. A second interpretation is that DK implemented a typical communist mass terror and that the Cham didn’t suffer more than the other Cambodians. Cham lifestyle was targeted because it was seen as counter-revolutionary; Islam entered the category of reactionary religions and the links of solidarity within Cham communities were perceived by DK as early as 1973 as a threat for the new order it wanted to implement.

The People’s Republic of Kampuchea (PRK) which followed DK after the Vietnamese armed intervention in 1978-1979 treated the Cham community with special tolerance. The emphasis on the sufferings of the Cham during DK was used by the PRK to stress the differences between the new “true” socialist regime from the radical DK approach to socialism. According to the text “L’Islam au Kampuchéa” published in 1987, the Chams would have entirely disappeared if DK had not been overthrown. There is now a population of 300.000 Chams in Cambodia which roughly accounts for 70% of the total Cambodian Muslim population.

Cham identity in Cambodia today
Although there are Cham groups and cultural associations abroad which go on claiming the ancestral Cham territory in Vietnam, there are nowadays in Cambodia no more hopes about Champa as a geographical entity or a Cham state anymore.

Cham identity is nevertheless matter of controversy in Cambodia. The way Cham people practice Islam is a very interesting example. The Islam of the Cham population can be roughly divided into 2 groups. On the one side, the Cham Sot who account for 10% of the Cham population (30.000 people) live in Kompong Chhnang, Pursat and Badtambang provinces.
In Udong in September, celebrating on the same day the anniversary of the prophet (mawlid) and the Iman San, leader of the Cham sot Community. 

A very unorthodox approach to Islam Cham Sot or “pure Cham” is the way they call themselves as they are accused by the other groups to practice very heterodox traditions. They only pray on Friday as opposed to the normal 5 times a day prayer. They still go on writing with the former Cham script as opposed to Jawi which is Arabic script originally adapted to write Malay.
A manuscript written with the ancient Cham script
Other infringements have been noticed by the researcher Agnès De Feo: only initiated people can pray in the Mosque, the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) is not compulsory and can be dreamt up. They organize once a year in September a festival in their Udong Mosque to celebrate on the same day the Imam San they venerate like a saint and the birth of the Prophet; they consider themselves as the followers of Imam san. The celebration of the birth of the prophet and saints is considered as heretic by wahhabism and Tabligh which have exerted a growing influence on Cambodian Cham’s Islam.

On the other side, there are the Chams who practice a more orthodox approach to Islam. This approach can’t be easily structured and must be considered as a continuum. There is of course a clear cut phenomenon which is the growing influence of Salafism with its Wahhabit variant and Tabligh. These two approaches do not differ on the essentials: the cause of the decadence of Islam is mainly due to the fact that the “true Islamic message” has been forgotten. This “true Islamic message” is restricted to the religious practices of the time of the prophet and the famous pious followers (Salaf Salîh) and implies de facto to choose to overlook 14 centuries of Muslim history. In such a conception, there is no possibility of an approach to Islam which would tolerate the integration of local cultural practices; in clear, the frontier which separates the true religion from impiety goes through the Muslim community.

There is nevertheless another extremely interesting border line which hasn’t been given yet the attention it deserves. Before the war (1970), many Cham people had built their identity on a combination of Islam, Cham language and Cultural inheritance from Champa. In such an approach Islam is but a part of Cham Cultural identity. Nowadays, there are still Cham people who define their identity through Cham culture even if this concept is often ill defined. But more and more Cham people tend now to rely only on Islam as the main source of identity.  An ethno-linguistic survey conducted in 3 Kampot region villages along the road from Kep to Kampot illustrates very well this fact. The first village centred on the Les Kosem Mosque doesn’t really differ from the others from point of view of religious practices. The difference lies somewhere else: precisely in the fact that Cham language is still practiced in the first village and a number of families still teach it to their children. People talk proudly about their difference. In the 2 other villages, the trend is else as almost no one can speak the language.
A Cham mosque in Kampot region
In many cases, the only remnant of Cham language is curiously the use in a Khmer sentence of the Cham first person pronoun “lun” meaning “I, me”. In these villages, to be Cham will simply means in the end to be a Muslim. No one can predict what is going to happen even in the near future.

We have some reasons to be pessimistic about the survival of Cham language in Cambodia, not to talk about Cham culture which, as we have seen, can’t be easily defined in the present Cambodian situation. Language will of course survive in a number of islets but maybe not as an active component of Cham identity. We can only hope that this exceptional linguistic, historical and cultural patrimony will remain alive and won’t be only reduced to a museum-like display of a dead civilization.

Jean-Michel Filippi


56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Look at the lands that lost to Thailand and Vietnam made Khmer people so sad.
On the Thai side: the land that goes deep down to the ocean, which presently attract so many tourists yearly.
On the Vietnam side, the land that goes along the ocean...

Anonymous said...

And Yuon were not newcomers?, Why only Chinese, Burmese, T'ai and Lao?
Yuon were also the newcomers.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

4:23PM
In the future our Khmer land will have the fate like Cham as well, pls do not blush at Cham people. We will have the same fate as cham in the future soon.

No more Khmer land in the new century

Anonymous said...

4:43 PM
I don't think, the real Khmer born said something so stupid like this one.

KI be kind please remove this comment from the blog.

Ben said...

9:43 PM

There is no 4:43PM, but 4:23PM which has been removed by KI.

I think 4:23PM is Yuon, and Yuon most the time I read in some Yuon blogs, they bash Cham as stupid people and some Yuon blamed Cham not their Yuon.

Anonymous said...

Was not Jayavaraman vii a Javanese before becoming Khmer King? Yes he was. In the ancient time most Khmers' Kings were foreigners, but only one King was Khmer. It was said in the history accurately stored in China. A lot of Scholars still disagreed with each others about the history they studied. One good thing those ancient Khmer Kings (foreign born) had built great Khmer empire together.

The transformation from Hindu to Buddhism (or the invasion of Buddhism) by Jayavaraman vii, many believed that was a curse.

They should not invade the great Hindu Temples such as Angkor Wat, Preah Vihea replacing with their idolatry (Buddhas) everywhere in the Hindu Templles.

The facts the Khmer Buddhists hate to hear or to be the bearer of this bad news about their kind, but that same century 12th century the Khmer Empire was declined while the new comer "T'ai" entered and created their new Kingdom taken from Cambodia (or some believed it was given by Gods (Hindu Gods) to new people (T'ai). Later Lao (T'ai brother) and Annamese (Vietnam) expand their land further South taken from Cham and Cambodia.

We Khmers agreed that Viets are aggressive and monsters, but we cannot ignore the facts that Buddhists destroyed the empire.

Jayavaaraman vii sent his son to learn Buddhism at foreign land and he declared Buddhism as a state religion, the transition was not going smoothly, there were execution/persecution against the Khmer Hindu, many escaped to join T'ai.

The last Khmer Hindu man who made his way to the top married Jayavaraman's daughter and he was trying to bring Hindu back to life, he unfortunately failed, because in his reign Khmer empire had to pay tribute to Kublai Khan who ruled/reigned over China.

The Khmer Empire declined since Buddhism entered the empire.
And today the tiny Cambodia land left is secretly controlled by Viets, and the Viets are majority Christians (Catholics), while Khmers still keep Buddhism as a state religion (Fake) and while the Khmer people majority practice "Snae, Ampeu, Witchcraft, Ap & T'mub".

Would not you believe in Destiny or Fate? Either some of you refuse to believe and enjoy cursing, none of you can change the Fate (the sins we committed against the builder of the Khmer Empire).

Anonymous said...

According to the Bible God divided up the nations according to the offsprings of the 3 sons of Noah (Genesis 10), 70 nations in all. It was after the world wide flood that the continents of the earth was also divided. The acient Chinese records confirm this also, the flood and the migrations of the people groups.

When the Jewish Temple was still standing, each year during the Feast of Tabernacles the priest
would offer 70 bulls on the behalf
of each nation. One bull for each nation. Isn't God Good? The blood of bull is usually use for sin cleansing or atonment. Now we can find forgivness through the blood of Messiah. But once the third Temple is rebuilt, the offereing will resume. Because God will put every people groups into their proper lineage link to the 3 sons of Noah. He is the God of order.

Correction: He divided up the nations according to the sons of Israel,70 of them. Anotherwords, the 3 sons of Noah's offspring was divided up to 70 nations to match the number of the children of Israel,counting males only. God's order is male is the head of household.

Here is what I believe, once the scathered remnant of the children of Israel are gathered back into their land the nations will be regather back into their proper places. Only God knows where each proper boundry are for each nation since man had moved them.

Here is also what came to me as read this article, the nations chaos are tied to Israel chaos. If Israel is in peace/at peace, the nations are at peace. God's order is that every nation well being revolves around the nation of Israel. Israel has been in a diver straight and nations are in termoil also at this time. God deals with his nation and I don't need to be their judge. It's all recorded in the Bible.

Israel is a vassal state of their King Yeshua, who is king over all the earth. If you mess with Israel you are messing with the God of Israel who has never been defeated by any power on earth or in heaven.

All of this will transpire at the Second Coming of Yeshua/Jesus when he will put in order that which man had broken and divided up more nations then what God had established. God is true all men are liars. If nations had kept their order there would not had been much conflict throughout man history. Sin is never satified, it always want more.

Wild~Wisconsinite

Anonymous said...


The fact is the Khmer Buddhists DESTROYED the Khmer Empire.
The Khmer Buddhists are so angry and sad with the great lost, but they would never admit their Bad Karma they did and continue to do destroy Cambodia.

Their Buddha status MUST be removed from the Hindu Temples (Angkor Wat) and leave the Temples the way it was.


Anonymous said...

Sorry for throwing this in here...

W~W @9:42,
My point is exactly! Man wrote the bible. I rest my case.

So, one have to believe in him in order for him to step in and save 1.7 millions that parish? That's not much to ask if he just come down and made his present felt so the non believer like myself can be a believer.
When you see him next time tell him to visit me. We have so much to talk about.

W~W @10:11
I was hand pick too to come to the US. It's called sponsorship. Of course, with the help of my dad's filing the paper work. You can probably guess who is my god by now.

My reply

. God has already visited you, its call the Scriptures. You have a door call heart, and it can only be open by you from the inside. No door knob is on the outside. God will not force your house down not until his judgment day.

. You rested your case but your alreday been defeated through your own deception.

. I use my freedom to honor my true Creator and you use your new freedom to dishonor your Creator. It is no difference as if you would dishonor your own parents. Because God's command for the children is to honor their father and mother. It is their first commandment. God's first command for his children is to love him with all their beings.

. Where was God when 6 millions Jews were killed? I have my answer but I won't wast my time to explain.

W~W

Anonymous said...

W~W @10:11
"I was hand pick too to come to the US. It's called sponsorship".

I thought US government sponsored you!

1/ A cousin of mine sold every things he had so his children and his wife could settle in NZ.
While the kids are grateful for his sacrifice, the wife who jointed church after arriving in NZ, thanks god for allowing her to go come to NZ.
My cousin , her husband, just threw his hands up in the air "what an idiot"

2/ One guy was riding his motto to work. On his way there, saw a co-worker waiting for the bus, stopped hi bike and gave his co-worker a ride.
When got to his work place, the co-worker started praying god and thank him (god) for the ride.
The guy who gave his buddy a ride did not say any thing.

Next day, he drove his motto on the same route and spot the same co-worker standing the same spot waiting for the bus as usual but instead of giving him a ride, he just zoomed by his co-worker and waved.

H didn't say some thing like " god will pick you up" or any thing.


Baay Kdaing

Anonymous said...

The FACT is Khmer Buddhists DESTROYED the Khmer Empire and destroyed a little land left called Cambodia.

REMOVE THOSE IDOLATRY "BUDDHAS" OUT OF Hindu TEMPLES or Otherwise, Khmer Nation is finished forever.

Anonymous said...

Who made most of the Cham people disappear?
The answer is: the evil Vietnam

By now, Khmer people must know Vietnam's behavior toward the people that it stole the land from or while it was occupying.
For instance, the quasi obliteration of the Cham people, the Kumpup The Ong, the unbearable suffering of Khmer Krom people, the abduction of Khmer children in the 1950s and brainwashed them to become Khmer Vietminh who killed Khmer during the Pol Pot's era, the deployment of the K5 project, etc...

In short, this Vietnam is such an evil that the world should be aware of and do something about it.

Takeo said...

Please forget about the history Khmer needs to focusing on ways to Save Cambodia from the Vietnamese expansion. Now Khmer is in very cruicial situations and very complication issues to prove The United Nations that Vietnamese are takeover Cambodia. As we know that Vietnamese are everywhere inside Cambodia but foreigners could not tell the different between Khmer and Viet.

Anonymous said...

Baay Kdaing,

Your assement is correct. I was sponsored by a 3 different church groups. I was with a family at the time. God does use people to accomplish his will. My point was, my heart was open to the Gospel of Jesus Christ despite the language barrier. I never doubt the existence of God. I believe because of that openess he continually open my understanding to his truth that endureth forever. You see, I pursued after God not challenging him. He is far wiser then any of us. I'm I perfect? Far from being. My righteousness is based on what Yeshua accomplished on the cross for me. I counted the incedents of my experience back in Srok Khmer and Thailand as the acts of God on my behalf. Does everyone have the same experience as I did? No.

Sure, I'm glad for all who escaped death from the going to Pot Era. My heart was wrenched with grieve as I later read of the accounts in William Showcross books (2008). God is my witness. I shed tears every nite for at least 4 months. I shed tears as I'm driving a log truck to mill as I reflected back on those things which was written by Showcross. When I talked to people I breakdown emotionally. I still do somewhat if I let my emotion overtake me.

W~W

Anonymous said...

Please listen to this beautiful song by our patriotic singer, Mr. Koy Vanna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkiim_0DVwM

Bun Thoeun

Anonymous said...

4:07 AM
Yes we Khmers agree that Yuon are evils, but why don't we believe we are CURSED by our Hindu ancestors?

As long as this Curse has not been lifted, we will all die. Don't you see our FATE/Destiny (bad Karma) is haunting us?
For nearly 800 year our Empire has continued to shrink and pretty soon we will be like Cham and Tibetan people.

Buddha cannot help us to keep our nation, Buddha's doctrine is to give all away to reach Nirvana (stop rebirth). I am sorry, I stop believing in Buddhas anymore. We need to preserve our land left for ourselves and for our people.

If I can I will remove all Buddha status pout of Angkor Wat and out of Preah Vihear and put them in Bayon built by Jayavaraman 7. He was the one who brought this curse upon Khmers.

Anonymous said...

Clarification...

The 70 sons of Israel was determined when all the family of Israel (Jacob 11 sons and their families) entered Egypt to live there in the land of Goshen for over 200 years. This was long after Genesis 10 was numerate. This was how God determined the nations after the 70 sons of Israel(combined all 12 sons and their sons that were alive at that time). Joseph was the Priminister of Egypt when the 11 sons and their father came down to Egypt with their respective family members. Joseph was one of the son's of Israel. All recorded in the book of Genesis. Joseph was a picture of Yeshua the Messiah. Because how Joseph's life played out the life of Messiah replicated that of Joseph as he suffered the rejection of his own brothern sold him to be executed by the Gentile people, Romans. I hope this helps to clarify any confusion.

My advice of any Khmer political wanna be is to honor Israel and seek her well being because God promised he will bless those who bless Israel. God never changes, he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. America been blessed because of this very fact. But that is changing very fast when president Obama came to office.

Wild~Wisconsinite

Anonymous said...

Israel's wife must be a pig or a bitch that can have more than 6 pups in each pregnancy. I don't Israel was a human either.

No one man and one woman can produce 70 kids? Back then human longevity was very low.

What kind of insane God is this?
70 kids, 70 nations ! I hoped it was not a riddle?

Oh what happened to dynausaurs when Israel was busy making children then?

Anonymous said...

When I wrote: I was hand picked by God to come to America it should had been understood that I was hand picked from my own family.

Since the rest of my family had never made it to America and yet they are still alive today. I was separated from my family for a whole year before Khmer Rouge came to power. I was only 10 or 12 years old at the time. If this had not happen, (the separation) I don't think I would had escaped either. Therefore I credit the providence of God, the Mighty Creator that he acted on my behalf without me knowing about it until I came to know him as my Creator and King. I'm sure other believers could testify of the Providence of God that spared their lives, though it will be different then mine.

5:28 AM

You're right about the curse part, but I don't think its by the Hindu gods. Who cursed the Mayan Empire? If you understand my question what I'm referring to. Yes, it is true that we bring curses upon ourselves, unless we can find out with absolute sure I would not credited it to Hinduism abandonment. I found the answer, it's in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 27 & 28. It was directed toward Israel but it applys for all nations and peoples. Because the Word of God is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". If it happened to the nation of Israel, how much more to those who don't know the truth of God?

Here is a different way to what I just quoted, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in rigth living."

God-breathed is meaning it is alive with life not just empty words. God's word is active in the realm of his kingdom. It will activate a blessing or a cursing for every right deed or for every wrong deed as listed in Deut: 27,28.

Does Hinduism scripture contain such pronouncements? Does Buddhism scripture contain such pronouncements?

W~W

Anonymous said...

Yasser Arafat was the Yeshua the Messiah who tried to raise a nation from extinction.

Nethanyahu is the prophet who's sent down by the God to save Israel descendants.

Anonymous said...

7:14 AM,

Your remark had been better kept to yourself. At least you had been wiser in that respect. You do not understand what I've written.

Why don't you in proper manner ask for clarity if you don't understand instead of defecate on what I've have written? I've tried my best to make it clear as possible. Thank You. I know that even true believers failed to grasp what I've written.

7:34 AM

You are wrong about Arafat. I'm sorry to say the Palestinians will be or is on its way to extinction soon. Except those who came to embrace the Jewish people.

As for Nathanyahu, I don't know if he is a prophet. His name has God's name atattched to it in the end as in: NathyYahu
Yah is God's name. Like in Yahweh

W~W

Anonymous said...

Talking of religions, some middle east and African countries are burning in the last few days because a few men with one religion insulted the other and the insulted party take their religion too serious.

When it comes to religion, please refrain from insulting each other, very touchy subject.

It's very dangerous when there is no religion (Pol Pot's) but it's even more dangerous when people are too serious about one religion and I hope W-W is not one of that.



Baay Kdaing

Anonymous said...

5:28 AM

I believe Buddhism is good if Cambodia is an island like New Zealand. Then believing totally in Buddhism won't hurt Cambodia.

But Cambodia lies next to an evil country Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism has not worked favorably for Cambodia. And coincidentally or not, Khmer empire started degrading constantly after Cambodia adopted Buddhism and also the rise of a bad leader named Trasak Phaem.

The family members of that new king kept fighting with each other to seize the power.
Even Sdach Chkuot playboy Kdor Kley Sihanouk (great great great grand child of Trasak Phaem) called on the north Vietnam to invade Cambodia to topple Lon Nol so that he could get his power back after he has lost the power.

Maybe the combination of: Buddhism, bad leaders, and bad neighbors that have caused Khmer people to suffer heavily.


Anonymous said...

why would any pity Cham?

Look what happens in the South of Thailand, Yala where majority are Cham.

Anonymous said...

cham people should get arabs brother to help them out rid of the vietcong.

Anonymous said...

8:21 AM

Buddhism is good if Cambodia is an island? You are really crazy.

Buddhism should not be legalized as a state religion regardless where the nation located. Too many islands far away from other nations were taken away by Spain, British, France, ...US. The modern Navy and planes can go everywhere on this small planet.

Buddhism should be only practiced by the people who seek Nirvana but not for the state religion.

So you blame the bad leaders, OK. but don't you see that we are cursed that was why Cambodia received only bad seeds? How can you are still blind for not recognizing that the day Buddhism invaded Hindu empire, the empire declined? And at the same century that T'ai (Siem) and Lao created their Kingdoms taken from us, then Yuon took half of our land now will take all.

If India and Nepal, all ~10000 Buddhas' own countries legalized Buddhism as a state religion like Tibet, they will lose their land to China for a long time ago.

For nearly 800 years nothing better but disaster until now.
We are Cursed. The Hindu great Temples such as Angkor Wat built by King Suryavaraman ii and Preah Vihear built by two Kings Suryavaraman i and ii should be left alone the way they were, and should not be invaded by putting Idolatry (Buddhas) in those Hindu Temples. Put them in Bayon built by Jayavaraman vii. He should respect the souls/spirits of those Hindu Kings, they built a great empire and their Temples must not be invaded by other idolatry (Buddhas).

I believe in Curse, and the majority people in the world such as US, UK.. believe in Curse. We are Cursed and no matter what or how we try, good people will be turned to evils or we always fail until we will be Cham, and we are on our path to Cham.

The nation was one great (Empire) never faced such calamities as after Buddhism took over and destroyed the empire. How can we claim to have Khmer pride with Angkor Wat when that pride (Angkor) was Hindu we ignored?

Many Khmers including Monks did not even pray or even say THANKS to the Angkor Wat builder, but to Jayavaraman vii only who did not build Angkor Wat. This is wrong and now we pay a highest price. We are cursed.

Our Empire lost and our land will be no longer ours.




Anonymous said...

10:36 AM
Cham people were Hindu, then Muslims following their Malay brothers. They fought Yuon fiercely but it was hard to cross the sea from Malay to Champa, so Cham asked Khmers to help fight Yuon together, Khmers refused. If Khmers helped Cham to fight Yuon Cham and Khmers may not be losing the land.

At the end Khmer lost South (Kampuchea Krom) to Yuon and Cham lost all. Yuon built their army since the day they freed from Chinese. They not only built the army but they also built agriculture, where Cham neglected the agriculture. With supplies how can a nation go to war?

I read Yuon history, Yuon like to say "we will not be survived if we do not exterminate Cham and Khmers. Don't worry about Lao, we can take her any time" Those similar words used by Pham Boi Chau in 1900's when he was in Thailand (Yuon revolution Based).

Yuon had a long suffering history with Chinese, and they becoming so violent, when war comes they fought without hoping of returning home. Yuon kill their own people for the sake of the land that is why they can march toward South taking Champa and Kampuchea Krom.

It is about how to survive.


Anonymous said...

I meant "Without supplies how can a nation go to war?"

Anonymous said...

10:40 AM

We (students)have talked about Buddha a lot too. We felt that Buddhism did not inspire us to fiercely fight back against the invaders.

" Som Ter Sok, Chanh Barn Chear Preah, Chneas Barn Chear Mear, Yveu Bonn Barn Bonn, Tveu Barb Barn Barb....but Ah Yuon Tveu Barb Khmer, York Dey Khmer Oss...

I agree with most of your points.

( I am 8:21 AM)

Anonymous said...

To those who are speaks of Evils toward Buddhism and to the Khmer people, when you use your God for the excuses to look down on others. Don't worry because you are only here for a short visit and then the Evil heart of your will take you to where you need to be.
Speaks of evils you always have a wicked heart.

Anonymous said...

To our Khmer we must live through dreary winter. If we would value the spring;
And the woods must be cold and silent.
Before the robins sing.
The flowers must be buried in the darkness.Before they can bud and bloom.
And the sweetest, warmest sunshine.
Come after the storm and gloom.

Anonymous said...

12:34 PM
People speak of the reign of Buddhism took over the empire that destroyed and weak the Khmer empire, it was shown in the history. You get to admit it it is all truth that Buddhism destroyed the Khmer Empire.

Anonymous said...

12:46 PM
Yes that poem can view toward only great warriors like King David (Famous King the world knew about). He lived about 3000 years ago, but Khmers won't make it. They lost forever to Yuon, and they will be Cham. Because their Buddhas told them to give up all to enter Nirvana.

Anonymous said...

1:12PM,
Are you saying that any country, which believe in Buddhism will be destroy because they are weak?
Do you know how old Buddhism is?
Do you mean China, Japan, Korean and others countries, who are believes in Buddhism will be destroy?
Weak people use religions to hide from the truth or to cover up their evil acts
Religions has nothing to do with your stupidity evil acts toward others.
Only bad people or bad religions will speak evils of other.
Most of you speaks of your God, if he or she was a good cop and Bad cop.
Stop insulted others by using your god.

Anonymous said...

Well People, times has change, so the people and their believes.The good religions, do not speaks ill of others.
The Free dome of believes is a good religion.
When you say, your God save you and at the same time the guy next to you who has the same believe as you are is dying, that will make you a liar and insulting to your own believers.

Look at Roman empire who did not want to change their God or religion, then see what had happened to them?
When you say your god is better, it is like you say your parents are better and that is rude!

You have the right to think and believe what ever you want, but it is just not right when you spits your religion in the other people's faces.

Anonymous said...

1;38pm

Are you saying that any country, which believe in Buddhism will be destroy because they are weak?

-Yes they were weak.

Do you know how old Buddhism is?

-This last one is about ~ 2500 years.

Do you mean China, Japan, Korean and others countries, who are believes in Buddhism will be destroy?

-Yes if they still sticked to Buddhism. China fell to Mongolia for few hundred years. Korea was weak and she was raped by powerful nations, until she was divided to two. One is Juche and another one is now mixing less Buddhists. Japan was not exactly Buddhism, Japan adopted some other religions even if it has Zen Buddhism, now Buddhism in japan is dying out.


Weak people use religions to hide from the truth or to cover up their evil acts Religions has nothing to do with your stupidity evil acts toward others.

-The history of the Khmer empire lost to at the time Jayavaraman vii forced Hindu gods to submit to his Buddha claimed to protect the empire. I copied from this article, but he was wrong.

Only bad people or bad religions will speak evils of other.

-It is not about speaking of evils it is fact from history that Buddhism destroyed the Khmer Empire. You can deny all you what, but that was the fact. Cambodia is cursed.

Most of you speaks of your God, if he or she was a good cop and Bad cop. Stop insulted others by using your god.

-You did not know that Hindu Khmer Kings built the empire? How disgrace you can be. You can deny all you want but the facts the Khmer Buddhists destroyed the Khmer empire. We did not see in the history that the Khmer Hindu destroyed the empire but built it.
Buddhism in Cambodia destroyed the Khmer Empire, since the late 13th century after Buddhism was announced as a state religion.





Anonymous said...

2:08 PM
Do you believe Cambodia/Khmers are Cursed by Hindu Kings of the Khmer Empire?


Many of us Khmers now believe that we are cursed.

Khmer Nation was built by Hindu Kings not by Buddhists. The Buddhists just came about nearly 800 years only. And since then nothing improved beside calamities upon Cambodia.

Yes you keep denying, but nothing could hide from the truth that the Khmer Buddhists destroyed the Khmer Empire.

Look at Tibet. If Tibet had an army with strong civilian leaders, China would have not dared to rape and rob Tibet. Tibet was ruled by Monks? It is absurd.

Anonymous said...

The crook or the bad guys never admit that they are bad. Likewise the Khmer Buddhists won't admit that they destroyed the Khmer empire either. They always shift the blame to someone else. But the facts, the Empire collapsed when Buddhism was adopted and legalized as a state religion. The Empire was doomed.

What happened if they stayed as Hinduism? They may survive if remain Hinduism. Look at India, Buddha's own country, still stand and even stronger.

Anonymous said...

We are so glad the Ki-Media admin delete or remove the stupid and negative Comments from the stupid bloggers of Yuon side. Hope that Ki-Media delete Dumb Yuon Dog Eaters's negative comments showing no reasons of labeling Khmer People are Dumb Khmer. Dumb Yuon Dog eater and other Dumb Yuon are stupid enough to brag and only promote Dumb Yuon are smarter than Khmer people. That is the reason why the Dumb Yuon Dog Eaters are so smart to kill people for taking land, empowering Khmer by taking over the control the businesses economically to show the world Dumb Yuon Dog Eaters are smarter (but very dumb and stupid), being so smart (but so dumb) to deceive and cheat to steal Khmer people, being so smart (but stupid and dumb) to show how hard Dumb Yuon Dog eaters work to earn, being so smart (but stupid and dumb0 to manipulate other clueless foreigners to scratch their about whether or not Khmer/Cambodian people are dumb (but Khmer/Cambodian people are so smart to play by the rules and follow the orders of good leaders and show respects for others), being so smart (but so dumb) to change the history of Dumb Yuon/Vietnamese history to be famous, but their Dumb Yuon/Vietnamese history are so fake), being so smart (but so dumb) to show how clever (even most stupid) to show their beautiful people (that stole from good looking Khmer/Cambodian folks) by breeding through terrible tragedy (Kompup Tae Ong) through Canal Digging or Heavy Dam labor (just like Khmer Rouges Killing Fields), and so beyond the imagines of the evil and dumb Yuon Dog Eaters.

Khmer Yeurng

Anonymous said...

Yes, Khmer have saved Cham people. Yes, Khmer Empire defeated Cham and gave the lessons, but wiped out Cham like Dumb Yuon Dog Eater Country wiped out Cham people the entire nation.

During the Khmer Rouges Killing Fields, Cham victims have blamed the Khmer Roughes (who are the real secret Dumb Yuon Dog Eating Agents hiding among Khmer Rouges uniforms - by speaking, writing and reading Khmer language so well). We all know so well that Dumb Yuon/Vietnamese Dog Eater Nation can not hide the dirty, disgusted, murderous, secret plans on Khmer and Cham (include Laos - Khmer's Sister).

The world need to step in to blame and punish the Evil Dumb Yuon Dog Eating Masters in Hanoi who control the stupid leader Hun Sen to mislead Cambodia/Khmer country beyond 30 years without any improvement of Human Rights and Democracy.

So be it, Dumb Yuon/Vietnamese Dog Eaters. Stop being so hypocrite and unreliable.

Anonymous said...

Correction for 3:11 PM

Yes, Khmer have saved Cham people. Yes, Khmer Empire defeated Cham DURING INVASIONS AND CHAM WAR AGAIN KHMER EMPIRE KINGDOM and gave the lessons, but DID NOT wipe out Cham like Dumb Yuon Dog Eater Country wiped out Cham people the entire nation.

Anonymous said...

Wild~Wisconsinite, you need to stop brainwashing. If you believe in God or Bible, you can not force anyone to be like you. You have to be yourself. It is OK to believe whatever you want, but you need to teach yourself to become a good person. So stop arguing. It is the end of discussion.

It is OK to discuss about Israel. Yes, Israel used to be powerful empire in the past, but unfortunately, about the bible, it is not our cup of tea.

Yes, Israel is a good country that does the right things to her people. Wish Khmer/Cambodia country can be a capable country with such a high tech country that defends herself from the aggressive neighbors.

Anonymous said...

W-W,
Congratulations you can speak dead language once were used by Egypt's slaves.
Do you have God email then I will ask it ( God can't be he or she)directly.So it's it.
Mao Tse Dung was and is God to save Chinamen.Meanwhile,you haven't thought what kind of parents of yours were? They gave own kid away like old shoes and underwear (per Soma Norodom post)to stranger. They must hate you that much,didn't they? That can't be presumed as you,a chosen one,to be converted to a religion that is out of your heritage. Strange,indeed, butterfly should never insulted the maggots.Without maggot there was no butterfly.

Sad for you W-W=0

Anonymous said...

បានម្ហូបអ្វីញាំបាយទៅអេស?

Anonymous said...

Buddhism with the mentality of Ven. Luon Savath is all right;
Khmer people will survive the evil nation Vietnam.

But look at the other 99.9999% of other monks. What did they do? They did nothing or tried to suppress Ven. Luon Savath from serving and helping Khmer people.

As a whole, I firmly believe Buddhism did not strengthen Khmer spirit to combat the evil Vietnam.

Like right now, Vietnam knew that Khmer people believe fanatically in Buddhism, Vietnam used Ah Gay Tep Vong to control all Khmer monks to facilitate Vietnam's plan to finish Cambodia off.

Khmer people should stop giving foods to Ah Monks 7th January 1979 because they are Vietnam spies who wore the monks robe.

Go to hell Ah evil Vietnam !! Your time is coming from your big neighbor.

Anonymous said...

854PM,
Don't worry be happy, the Shepherd will eat all the sheeps then he will come,alone, in his hands.

Anonymous said...

Please save Cambodia now.

Anonymous said...

where alahhhhhh.

Anonymous said...

Some idiot here are on a mission? Why can't he/she leave other religious alone. Have some respect for others belief!
Everyone here have their own belief/religious and your god is not above anyone's god.

"All men are created equal". Thomas Jefferson

Anonymous said...

I am grateful that King Jayavaraman 7 made Khmer land big and his reign/rule compared to former Hindu, he seemed to do better in term of education and health, etc., He built Bayaon not far from Angkor Wat of King Suryavaraman II, and hundred of his temples has his powerful faces.

But I was sad and so disappointed that he had all the power and wealth, he did not build a strong defense army while at that time Yuon were already up to take Champa, and T'ai were coming to reside near the Khmer Empire.

Did not he see the dangers by foreigners surrounding the empire and waiting for the right time to smash Khmers? He spent all the times to build hundred of temples (Bayon) with his faces for all directions, and he spent time to conquer the Khmer Hindu and persecuted them while they inherited Hinduism culture since the first queen who married to a Hindu Indian Prince(thousand years).

The worse of all was he belittled our greatest Hindu Temple Angkor Wat by replacing Hindu gods with his new religion (Buddha) he brought in. It appeared that King Jayavaraman 7 had no respect for King Suryavaraman II who built the greatest Hindu Monument. If he did he would had not put his Buddhas inside the Hindu Temple at all.

He should have left Angkor Wat the way it was and preserve the treasure of our ancient Hindu Kings. Jayavaraman 7 perhaps, thought he was god and untouchable. It could be from that Khmers/Cambdodia are cursed, miserable ever since.

As a matter of fact jayavaraman 7 did not build the Khmer Empire he inherited it. Those Khmer Hindus who run for their lives may had escaped to join with T'ai the newcomers. Without the ones who knew inside our home, the T'ai would had not defeated and sacked everything in our country.

Jayavaraman sent his son to learn Buddhism, and when his son took the throne, Cambodia became weak and weaker, until the next Kings cannot restore what Khmers were defeated. How can they restore if the wealth (gold..) were sacked by T'ai and thus Khmers became poor.

Yuon were speeding to exterminate Champa, while Siem/T'ai were speeding to exterminate Khmers.

When we are weak and poor we cannot go to war.

For about more than 700 years now we Khmers remain sufferings and even went through sufferings in Pol Pot. Pol Pot was trying to do help his country, but we are cursed so everything always goes wrong.

Our punishments seem to be not stopped, after Pol Pot we received an uneducated peasant used by Yuon to terrorize us for our land. This idiot now ordered everything people built gets to be in his name. He seems to compete with Jayavaraman 7 too.

For many who have learned and understood that the calamities or curse brought upon us was since jayavaraman 7 and his son adopted Buddhism from India/Nepal as a state religion and invaded the sacred place of Hindu Kings.

It was not Buddha who destroyed the empire, it was Jayavaraman 7 and his descendants replacing Hindu gods with their Buddhas in Hindu temples which were not belong to them.

The souls live on, and so they are angry and we are cursed.

If we can summon Jayavaraman 7 and his son right now they probably regret for seeing their actions led to the destruction of the great empire.


I used to feel so proud of his Jayavaraman 7's achievements, but the history is a mirror and many of use saw the past how they failed us.



Anonymous said...

If Jayavaaaraman vii kept the same culture (Hindusim) but built a very strong army like Yuon and T'ai we Khmers would save our empire. Only very strong national defense and rich agriculture any nation will always survive.

But the guy preferred to build hundred of his faces (Bayon) for his new god Buddha, didn't care about Yuon and Siem are next to the Empire. Or he thought he can brainwash Yuon and T'ai with Buddha's teachings. Wrong turn.

One thing he did was he defeated Champa nothing else. After he was gone, we were doomed.

Anonymous said...

Many Khmers did not understand that the Religion plays a greatest role on a nation. Having monsters Viets & Thais next to Cambodia, Buddhism is the wrong religion for Cambodia to adopt.

Cambodians should had followed their ancient Hindu ancestors.

How can a nation such as Cambodia while under threat surrounding by newcomers (Thais and Viets) selected a weak religion to defend the nation? About Thai and Burmese, they were newcomers and they' were very well armed, if not how can they sacked the empire?

Buddhism is good for an individual who is looking to reside in Nirvana, but it is bad for a nation.


Right if Tibet governed by a civilian with a strong army instead a monk (Dala Lama), China cannot rob Tibet.


Anonymous said...

"Some idiot here are on a mission? Why can't he/she leave other religious alone. Have some respect for others belief!
Everyone here have their own belief/religious and your god is not above anyone's god."

"All men are created equal". Thomas Jefferson

10:20 AM

This comment proved the commentator isn't created equal to a man who in turn created God/s out of heat stroke and delusional state of mind.
Just now I heard real loud thunder,I looked out the window to see if it God who spoke in riddle to earth people. But all I saw dark cloud spreaded across the empty sky then rain fell. I thought to myself,whoever came up with theory of water evaporization to atmosphere then by the climate changed in wind there came the rain. This is true to the creation of Gods, men created letters and used letters to invent gods, but not possible to reverse.

10:20am spoke from self delusional state,take one to know one...Aman (opposite of man)

Anonymous said...

1:52 AM,
You're hearing noise? Seek the help of a psychiatrist! You are delusional. We heard thunders all the time in America.
I guess Texas tornado is a ways god reaching out to help the christian? Muah! Ha! Ha!

Anonymous said...

Sounding a bit too gayish there 5:40 AM?...BBFN!!! Ha!Ha!