Khmer Rouge torture boss feared his own execution

Thursday, Jul 16, 2009
AP AND AFP , PHNOM PENH

A senior interrogator at the most notorious Khmer Rouge prison told a genocide tribunal yesterday that even he feared the regime would one day turn on him and order his execution.

He testified at the trial of Kaing Guek Eav — better known as Duch — who headed the S-21 prison in Phnom Penh. Up to 16,000 people were tortured under Duch’s command and later taken away to be killed during the Khmer Rouge’s 1975 to 1979 rule.

Mam Nai, 76, told the court that he was overcome by fear when Duch stripped him of his main duties after prisoners said he had visited their homes — socializing prohibited by the regime.

Mam Nai said that regardless of their loyalty or rank, Khmer Rouge officials could be arrested and executed on suspicion of being traitors. Mam Nai himself was allegedly responsible for interrogating and torturing high-ranking members of the Communist Party of Kampuchea accused of plotting against the regime.

An estimated 1.7 million Cambodians died of hunger, disease or were executed during the Khmer Rouge reign of terror.

“When Duch told me I was implicated and later removed me from my interrogation task, I was so worried that probably Duch no longer trusted me and he would find some kind of pretext to arrest me,” Mam Nai said.

On Tuesday, he denied using torture to extract confessions from S-21 prisoners — a stark contrast to Duch’s earlier recitation of the grisly techniques routinely used.

Confronted by prosecutors yesterday with his own logbook, which contained numerous references to torture, he denied any knowledge that inmates were abused.

“Personally, I was never instructed on how torture was used,” Mam Nai said. “And I have no idea what other kinds of practices were applied by other interrogators.”

When prosecutor William Smith asked whether he was seeking to block from his mind the “horrible criminality” of his past actions, Mam Nai said: “I have never had such [an] idea. I am testifying based on the activities I have done.”

He repeatedly fended off questions about conditions at Tuol Sleng, saying he could not remember or wished to remain silent.

Meanwhile, New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) yesterday demanded Cambodia’s rulers end a spate of legal action against critics, which it called the government’s “harshest crackdown in years” on free speech.

HRW alleged Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen’s government aimed to silence political opposition and critics with a recent “campaign of harassment, threats, and unwarranted legal action.”

Authorities have lodged at least nine criminal defamation and disinformation complaints against journalists, lawmakers, lawyers and government critics since April.

Mam Nay's regret: that the Vietnamese defeated the Khmer Rouge

Tuesday, 14 July 2009
Elena Lesley
The Phnom Penh Post

Former S-21 deputy Mam Nay did indeed begin testifying today, although his much-anticipated appearance was somewhat anticlimactic. For the most part, the 76-year-old, bundled in a krama and gloves, claimed he couldn't remember much about his work under Comrade Duch.

He told judges that, despite his status as an interrogator at S-21, he did not torture prisoners. Moreover, he claimed that the detainees brought to him looked neither malnourished nor mistreated -- a comment met with disbelief by many audience members.

Mam became most passionate toward the end of the day, when explaining how he believed all of the Vietnamese brought to S-21 were somehow guilty.

“I strongly believe they were invaders of Cambodian territory," he told Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne emphatically. "None of them was innocent. They grabbed Cambodian territory!”

When Lavergne asked if he had any regrets, Mam responded that he regretted that his country had been invaded by foreigners, first the Americans and then the Vietnamese.

His testimony will continue tomorrow.

Killing fields man ‘forgets’

Jul 16, 2009
AFP

FORMER Khmer Rouge prison chief Duch implored his deputy to tell the truth yesterday at Cambodia’s UN-backed war crimes court, but the weeping witness refused to admit anything.

Mam Nai, 76, was giving evidence at the trial of Duch, who has admitted overseeing the torture and execution of about 15000 people held at Tuol Sleng prison, also known as S-21.

After two days of testimony, in which Mam Nai said he knew nothing of torture at the prison, Duch begged him to use the opportunity “to put together the pieces of the puzzle on this matter”.

“So here, emotionally, we have to be accountable for the crimes committed,” he added.

“I think it was a chaotic situation, and we have nothing other than being regretful. We could not do anything else,” Mam Nai said. But he refused to alter his previous testimony, in which he repeatedly fended off questions about conditions at Tuol Sleng, saying he could not remember.

Mam Nay, Duch’s former deputy: amnesia and serious accommodation with truth

Tuol Sleng / S-21 (Phnom Penh, Cambodia). A “simple interrogator,” Mam Nay allegedly saw or heard nothing of the crimes committed in S-21 against prisoners he found “neither too thin or too fat”… Words that stirred heated reactions in the audience (John Vink/ Magnum/file picture)

15-07-2009
By Stéphanie Gée
Ka-set

Mam Nay, former head of the interrogation unit at S-21 – the equivalent in this structure of the political commissioner dear to communist regimes –, returned before the Chamber on Tuesday July 14th, duly assisted by a lawyer this time, as recommended by the defence on the previous day. All throughout the day, the witness in Duch’s trial was assailed with questions by the judges – for good reason, as his answers were quite often terse, alternating between “I don’t know” and “I don’t remember,” when he was not ostensibly lying. His testimony prompted much outcry and out loud comments in the public gallery, as the audience was exasperated by such bad faith. The ten seats reserved for civil parties in the courtroom were all occupied for once.

Where should the witness’ lawyer be placed?

The tribunal managed to find a lawyer for Mam Nay but, at the start of the hearing, the defence expressed “the strongest reservations” regarding the place he was given: on the same bench as Duch’s defence counsels. “This leads to granting, by anticipation, the request of the Prosecutor to consider Mr. Mam Nay as an accused today. […] It seems to me that is not correct,” François Roux, Duch’s international co-lawyer, argued. The international co-Prosecutor, who said the situation did not offend him, added he regretted that the defence worried, on the previous day, about “whether the witness was fully aware of his rights.” William Smith stressed that the remark should not have been made in front of the witness, but before his testimony and in camera.

President Nil Nonn announced that the Chamber would not change the seat it assigned the lawyer called to assist Mam Nay, which “does not mean in any way that the witness is guilty.” He took the opportunity to recall the parties that “the trial management came under the sole authority of the Chamber.”

Click to Read More...

KRouge jail chief confronts tearful deputy

Wednesday, July 15, 2009
By Suy Se

PHNOM PENH (AFP) — Former Khmer Rouge prison chief Duch implored his deputy to tell the truth Wednesday at Cambodia's UN-backed war crimes court, but the weeping witness refused to admit to crimes.

Mam Nai, 76, was giving evidence at the UN-backed trial of his former boss Duch, who has admitted responsibility for overseeing the torture and execution of around 15,000 people held at Tuol Sleng prison, also known as S-21.

After two days of testimony in which Mam Nai said he knew nothing of torture at the prison, Duch stood in court and begged him to use the opportunity "to put together the pieces of the puzzle on this matter".

"You cannot really use a basket to cover the dead elephant. So that's it, don't even attempt to do that. And I think since I am ready to accept being accountable of all the crimes, I would want you to do the same," Duch said.

"So here, emotionally, we have to be accountable for the crimes committed," he added.

Mam Nai, wearing purple fingerless gloves, began to use the traditional checkered Khmer scarf around his neck to wipe tears as he spoke of using Buddhism to cope with his remorse about the late 1970s regime.

"I think it was a chaotic situation, and we have nothing other than being regretful. We could not do anything else," Mam Nai said.

"I am now trying to relieve myself by considering karma and religious relief, and of course I have regrets."

However Mam Nai refused to alter his previous testimony, in which he repeatedly fended off questions about conditions at Tuol Sleng, saying he could not remember or wished to remain silent.

Confronted by prosecutors Wednesday with his own prison log book, which contained numerous references to torture, the witness -- who was also a senior interrogator at the jail -- denied any knowledge that inmates were abused.

"Personally, I was never instructed on how torture was used," said Mam Nai, whose Khmer Rouge nom de guerre was Chan. "And I have no idea what other kinds of practices were applied by other interrogators."

When prosecutor William Smith asked whether he was seeking to block from his mind the "horrible criminality" of his past actions, Mam Nai answered: "I have never had such (an) idea. I am testifying based on the activities I have done."

The prosecution told Mam Nai that he would not be charged for past crimes he may have committed under the Khmer Rouge, but defence lawyer Francois Roux told him Wednesday not to believe their assurances.

Mam Nai told the court that Duch removed him from the interrogation detail and he became afraid he would be arrested after a prisoner alleged he was an enemy of the hardline communist regime.

"After he (Duch) told me that an enemy implicated me in his confession, he stopped me from being an interrogator and I was scared," Mam Nai said.

The 66-year-old Duch, whose real name is Kaing Guek Eav, has accepted responsibility for his role governing the jail and begged forgiveness near the start of his trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But he has consistently rejected claims by prosecutors that he held a central leadership role in the Khmer Rouge, and maintains he never personally killed anyone.

Led by Pol Pot, who died in 1998, the Khmer Rouge emptied Cambodia's cities in a bid to forge a communist utopia. Up to two million people died of starvation, overwork, torture and execution during the 1975-79 regime.

Four other former Khmer Rouge leaders are currently in detention and are expected to face trial next year at the court, which was formed in 2006 after nearly a decade of wrangling between the UN and the Cambodian government.

Khmer Rouge interrogator feared for his life

Wednesday, July 15, 2009
By SOPHENG CHEANG

PHNOM PENH, Cambodia (AP) — A senior interrogator at the most notorious Khmer Rouge prison told a genocide tribunal Wednesday that even he feared the regime would one day turn on him and order his execution.

He testified at the trial of Kaing Guek Eav — better known as Duch — who headed the S-21 prison in Phnom Penh. Up to 16,000 people were tortured under Duch's command and later taken away to be killed during the Khmer Rouge's 1975-1979 rule. Only a handful survived.

The interrogator, 76-year-old Mam Nai, told the U.N.-backed court that he was overcome by fear when Duch (pronounced DOIK) stripped him of his main duties after prisoners said he had visited their homes — socializing prohibited by the regime.

Mam Nai said that regardless of their loyalty or high-rank, Khmer Rouge officials could be arrested and executed on suspicion of being traitors. Mam Nai himself was allegedly responsible for interrogating and torturing high-ranking members of the Communist Party of Kampuchea accused of plotting against the regime.

An estimated 1.7 million Cambodians died of hunger, disease or were executed during the Khmer Rouge reign of terror in the mid-1970s. The regime was toppled by a Vietnamese invasion in 1979.

"When Duch told me I was implicated and later removed me from my interrogation task, I was so worried that probably Duch no longer trusted me and he would find some kind of pretext to arrest me," Mam Nai said.

In testimony Tuesday, he denied using torture to extract confessions from S-21 prisoners — a stark contrast to Duch's earlier recitation of the grisly techniques routinely used.

Duch, 66, is the first senior Khmer Rouge figure to face trial and the only one to acknowledge responsibility for his actions. He is charged with crimes against humanity.

Senior leaders Khieu Samphan, Nuon Chea, Ieng Sary and Ieng Sary's wife, Ieng Thirith, are detained and are likely to face trial in the next year or two.

Mam Nai said while at S-21 prison even his wife never knew of his work because the regime demanded that its members maintain total secrecy.

KRouge jail deputy denies downplaying crimes [-Mam Nay is not downplaying crimes ... he just distorts the truth somewhat]

MWednesday, July 15, 2009

PHNOM PENH (AFP) — The former deputy head of the notorious main Khmer Rouge jail has denied he was minimizing his role in the late 1970s regime during testimony at Cambodia's UN-backed war crimes court.

Mam Nai, 76, was giving evidence at the trial of his former boss Duch, who has admitted responsibility for overseeing the torture and execution of around 15,000 people held at Tuol Sleng prison, also known as S-21.

Confronted by prosecutors Wednesday with his own prison log book, which contained numerous references to torture, the witness -- who was also a senior interrogator at the jail -- denied any knowledge that inmates were abused.

"Personally, I was never instructed on how torture was used," said Mam Nai, whose Khmer Rouge nom de guerre was Chan. "And I have no idea what other kinds of practices were applied by other interrogators."

When prosecutor William Smith asked whether he was seeking to block from his mind the "horrible criminality" of his past actions, Mam Nai answered: "I have never had such (an) idea. I am testifying based on the activities I have done."

The witness, wearing purple fingerless gloves and a traditional checkered Khmer scarf, repeatedly fended off questions about conditions at Tuol Sleng, saying he could not remember or wished to remain silent.

Mam Nai told the court that Duch removed him from the interrogation detail and he became afraid he would be arrested after a prisoner alleged he was an enemy of the hardline communist regime.

"After he (Duch) told me that an enemy implicated me in his confession, he stopped me from being an interrogator and I was scared," Mam Nai said.

The 66-year-old Duch, whose real name is Kaing Guek Eav, has accepted responsibility for his role governing the jail and begged forgiveness near the start of his trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But he has consistently rejected claims by prosecutors that he held a central leadership role in the Khmer Rouge, and maintains he never personally killed anyone.

Led by Pol Pot, who died in 1998, the Khmer Rouge emptied Cambodia's cities in a bid to forge a communist utopia. Up to two million people died of starvation, overwork, torture and execution during the 1975-79 regime.

Interrogator at Khmer Rouge prison denies torture

Tuesday, July 14, 2009
By SOPHENG CHEANG

PHNOM PENH, Cambodia (AP) — A senior interrogator at the most notorious Khmer Rouge prison denied Tuesday that he tortured victims, despite grisly earlier testimony from his former boss that torture was common there.

Mam Nai, 76, told the U.N.-backed genocide tribunal that his main duty was to interrogate low-ranking Khmer Rouge soldiers who allegedly opposed the regime, as well as Vietnamese prisoners of war.

"I never used any torture. It was my understanding that applying torture would lead to an inappropriate confession, that there would be little true in forced confessions," Mam Nai said.

His testimony comes at the trial of Kaing Guek Eav — better known as Duch — who headed the S-21 prison in Phnom Penh. Up to 16,000 people were tortured under his command and later taken away to be killed during the Khmer Rouge's 1975-1979 rule. Only a handful survived.

During hours of earlier testimony, Duch graphically described torture methods used at the prison, though he did not testify about Mam Nai's activities there. He has asked forgiveness from victims' relatives.

Duch (pronounced DOIK), 66, is the first senior Khmer Rouge figure to face trial and the only one to acknowledge responsibility for his actions. He is charged with crimes against humanity and is the first of five defendants scheduled for long-delayed trials by the tribunal.

Senior leaders Khieu Samphan, Nuon Chea, Ieng Sary and Ieng Sary's wife, Ieng Thirith, are detained and are likely to face trial in the next year or two.

Mam Nai allegedly was responsible for the interrogation and torture of high-ranking members of the Communist Party of Kampuchea accused of plotting against the regime.

He said he met Duch after fleeing into the jungle to fight with the Khmer Rouge in 1973, and Duch trained him in interrogation. He said he was once assigned to question 20 Vietnamese soldiers.

"First, I had to play politics with them, to make them understand and then they agreed to make a confession. After that, I asked for their biographies and their personal activities," he said.

"If the prisoners refused to confess, I asked the guards to take them back to their cells to think and reflect on their positive and negative activities," he said.

Former K.Rouge prison deputy denies torture

Tuesday, July 14, 2009
By Patrick Falby

PHNOM PENH (AFP) — The former deputy head of the main Khmer Rouge prison on Tuesday denied he had tortured prisoners as he sought to play down his position in Cambodia's late 1970s hardline regime.

Mam Nai, 76, told the UN-backed war crimes trial of former jail chief Duch that his role had been only to question inmates at the notorious Tuol Sleng prison.

"I was just a plain and simple interrogating cadre," Mam Nai said, addressing the court as a witness, not a defendant.

"I only interrogated prisoners without applying torture. It is my understanding that applying torture brings untrue confessions."

His former boss Duch is accused of overseeing the torture and execution of around 15,000 people who passed through Tuol Sleng.

Although documents from the regime say Mam Nai was Duch's deputy and tortured prisoners into confessing espionage, he said he only interrogated "not important" inmates and used psychological tricks rather than abuse.

"When I asked the person about their biography and activities, it was not difficult at all (to get a confession)," Mam Nai said.

"If a prisoner refused to respond... I instructed guards to take prisoners back to their cell to think for a while, to reflect on their positive and negative activities," he added.

Mam Nai, whose Khmer Rouge nom de guerre was Chan, went on to tell the court that he was "unclear" on the organising structure of the notorious detention centre and knew nothing of mass killings there.

The witness, appearing in court wearing purple fingerless gloves and a traditional chequered Khmer scarf, batted away judges' questions throughout the day.

He said he had not known all prisoners at Tuol Sleng were presumed guilty and destined to be killed, and that he could not recall drafting prison documents shown to the court, which appeared to be signed by him.

When French judge Marc Laverne asked whether he suffered from memory problems, Mam Nai replied that he has trouble recalling the names of his children after a recent accident at his home.

"I fell onto the ground and fell unconscious for a while. Since then, I seem to forget a lot," Mam Nai said.

The 66-year-old Duch, whose real name is Kaing Guek Eav, has accepted responsibility for his role governing the jail and begged forgiveness near the start of his trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But he has consistently rejected claims by prosecutors that he held a central leadership role in the Khmer Rouge, and maintains he never personally killed anyone.

Led by Pol Pot, who died in 1998, the Khmer Rouge emptied Cambodia's cities in a bid to forge a communist utopia. Up to two million people died of starvation, overwork, torture and execution during the 1975-79 regime.

Four other former Khmer Rouge leaders are currently in detention and are expected to face trial next year at the court, which was formed in 2006 after nearly a decade of wrangling between the UN and the Cambodian government.

The tribunal is marred by a dispute between prosecutors over whether to pursue more suspects. It also faces accusations of government interference and claims that local staff were forced to pay kickbacks for their jobs.

Mam Nai's testimony continues Wednesday.

Khmer Rouge interrogator says "no regrets" about deaths

By Ek Madra

PHNOM PENH, July 14 (Reuters) - A former interrogator at the Khmer Rouge's notorious S-21 prison on Tuesday expressed no remorse for the deaths of thousands of Cambodians who he said had all committed crimes.

Appearing as a prosecution witness in the trial of Duch, Pol Pot's head jailor, Mam Nay, also known as Chan, denied any part in torture or killings of prisoners and blamed the United States and Vietnam for undermining his country.

An estimated 1.7 million people died during the Khmer Rouge's four-year "killing fields" reign of terror, which ended when Vietnamese forces invaded in 1979.

Asked by the judge if he regretted what happened at the Tuol Sleng prison, where more than 14,000 men, women and children were killed, Chan showed no remorse.

"My only regret was our country was invaded," he told the joint Cambodian-U.N. tribunal. "Frankly speaking, the Americans invaded us then Vietnam invaded us. That is my regret."

During his five hours of questioning, Nay, a former teacher, said he remembered very little about the S-21 interrogation centre, a former school and now a museum to the horrors of the Khmer Rouge regime.

He was granted immunity in exchange for his testimony but was reluctant to speak against Duch, the first of the five indicted former Khmer Rouge cadres to face trial.

"I was assigned by Duch to interrogate detainees," said Chan, who wore sunglasses and a traditional Cambodian scarf. "I did not use torture in my interrogation. I believed I would not get a true confession."

Asked about the deaths of innocent people, Nay, 76, said: "None of them was innocent -- those people committed offences, either minor or serious.

"This was the reason for their arrest. How serious or how minor, I don't know."

With no death penalty in Cambodia, Duch, whose real name is Kaing Guek Eav, faces a maximum sentence of life in prison if convicted on charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture and murder.

Also indicted are Khmer Rouge second-in-command Nuon Chea, former President Khieu Samphan and ex-foreign minister Ieng Sary and his wife, all of whom have denied knowledge of the atrocities.

Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot, who was known by the regime as "Brother Number One", died in 1998 near the Thai-Cambodia border.

(Writing by Martin Petty; Editing by Nick Macfie)

Former KRouge prison deputy denies torture

A journalist takes pictures of a live feed of Mam Nai, a former chief of interrogation at the Khmer Rouge's S-21 prison, during the trial of the Khmer Rouge regime's chief torturer Kaing Guek Eav, also known as Duch, on the outskirts of Phnom Penh July 14, 2009. REUTERS/Chor Sokunthea

7/14/2009
Agence France-Presse

The former deputy head of the Khmer Rouge's main prison has denied he had tortured prisoners as he sought to play down his position in Cambodia's late 1970s hardline regime.

Mam Nai, 76, told the UN-backed war crimes trial of former jail chief Duch that his role had been only to question inmates at the notorious Tuol Sleng prison.

"I was just a plain and simple interrogating cadre," Mam Nai said, addressing the court as a witness, not a defendant.

"I only interrogated prisoners without applying torture. It is my understanding that applying torture brings untrue confessions."

His former boss Duch is accused of overseeing the torture and execution of around 15,000 people who passed through Tuol Sleng.

Although documents from the regime say Mam Nai was Duch's deputy and tortured prisoners into confessing espionage, he said he only interrogated "not important" inmates and used psychological tricks rather than abuse.

"When I asked the person about their biography and activities, it was not difficult at all (to get a confession)," Mam Nai said.

"If a prisoner refused to respond... I instructed guards to take prisoners back to their cell to think for a while, to reflect on their positive and negative activities," he added.

Mam Nai, whose Khmer Rouge nom de guerre was Chan, went on to tell the court that he was "unclear" on the organising structure of the notorious detention centre and knew nothing of mass killings there.

The 66-year-old Duch, real name Kaing Guek Eav, has accepted responsibility for his role in governing the jail and begged forgiveness from victims near the start of his trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But he has consistently rejected claims by prosecutors that he held a central leadership role in the Khmer Rouge, and maintains he never personally killed anyone.

Led by Pol Pot, who died in 1998, the Khmer Rouge emptied Cambodia's cities in a bid to forge a communist utopia. Up to two million people died of starvation, overwork, torture and execution during the 1975-79 regime.

Four other former Khmer Rouge leaders are currently in detention and are expected to face trial next year.

Duch’s lawyer to the rescue of his client’s former colleague

Mam Nay during his hearing (Photo: Cambodge Soir Hebdo)

Tuesday, July 14, 2009
By Benjamin Vokar
Cambodge Soir Info
Translated from French by Luc Sâr
Click here to read the article in French

Mam Nay, the former questioner at S-21, came to testify for Duch’s trial on Monday 13 July. Duch was his boss under the KR regime. The hearing was adjourned following a request made by the defense.

The hearing of the witness only lasted a short moment. As soon as Mam Nay was informed of his right to remain silent, François Roux, Duch’s French lawyer, called for an end of the process while underscoring the risks the witness could be subjected to following the prosecutor request to introduce the “joint criminal enterprise” charge.

Lawyer Roux returned back to this legal term: “For the co-prosecutors, Duch is an integral part of a joint criminal enterprise, this also includes all the workers under him at S-21. This means that the current witness, who was working under Duch, risks being charged by the co-prosecutors regardless of whether he maintains his silence or not, should the Chamber accept the [co-prosecutors] request [to introduce the joint criminal enterprise].”

As a witness under oath, 76-year-old Mam Nay is asked to tell the truth to the court. Nevertheless, as a former questioning official in Tuol Sleng (S-21), his testimony could also earn him legal charges.

Following the defense request, the court decided to provide legal assistance to the witness, whose hearing was postponed to Tuesday 14 July.