Pen SovannRealpolitik with Pen Sovann
Phnom Penh Post, Issue 16 / 04, February 23 - March 8, 2007
"Now they speak of democracy, but it's just talk. It's communist inside. I have seen that the CPP's hierarchy and policies are formed in the communist fashion. They talk about democracy just because it sounds good. In reality what they implement is not the same as what they say. Cambodian people have never had real democracy. The country is controlled by powerful people, and the poor people are their slaves" - Pen Sovann talking about the CPP
Born in Takeo in 1936, Pen Sovann dropped out of school at 15 and joined a local anti-French movement led by Ek Choeun, later infamous as Ta Mok. After the Indochina War in 1954, he was one of some 1,000 Cambodians "regrouped" to Vietnam for military training. He joined the Khmer Rouge in 1970, and was in charge of information until 1974. Claiming that "Pol Pot and Ieng Sary wanted to kill me," he fled back to Vietnam and was instrumental in forming the United Front for the National Salvation of Cambodia in 1978. After the Vietnamese-backed overthrow of the Khmer Rouge in 1979, he became the Front's secretary-general, and Prime Minister in 1981. Later that year, just days after criticizing the Vietnamese presence in Cambodia, his home was surrounded by "900 troops and 12 tanks," and he was handcuffed, covered with a black mask, and rushed to Hanoi were he would spend the next 10 years in prison and home arrest.
Today, he sits in a wooden gazebo over a fish pond behind his home in Takeo town. Tacked to the wooden walls are sepia-tinted photographs of Sovann alongside CPP stalwarts Hun Sen, Chea Sim, Say Phou Thong. In one he's standing in the back of a Soviet jeep reviewing troops in front of the Royal Palace in 1980. In another he's sharing a light moment with retired King Norodom Sihanouk. It's a comfortable home, but modest for a former head of state who has visited the White House, the Pentagon and the Kremlin. Besides the occasional foreign reporter or diplomat (former US Ambassador Charles Ray once lunched here), his days are undisturbed. He's the president of the National Sustaining Party of Cambodia, but the party sign in front of his home is adorned with rust and peeling paint. The government has been labeling him mentally ill for years.
Sovann once told the Post: "Cambodian politics has the head of a chicken and the ass of a duck. They speak about democracy and multiple political parties, but they practice communist ways."
He spoke to Charles McDermid on February 17 about Ta Mok, Hun Sen and the CPP's lingering links to communism.
Why do so many people have the opinion that you're crazy?
This comes from Hun Sen. In 1993 he made a statement to the people saying I had mental problems. The people asked: "Where is Pen Sovann now?" And Hun Sen said he's still alive, but he's stupid now and when he talks he foams at the mouth. This isn't true. A person should be
judged by how they act.
What was it like to work with "The Butcher" Ta Mok?
I met Ta Mok in August, 1949. Later, I became his bodyguard and adviser. At the time he was teaching people about resistance tactics. He was a good help to many people. At that time he was a good person with a good character. He started to change around 1968.
How did you react when you learned Ta Mok died last year?
I had two feelings. First I felt very sorry to lose the person who taught me about fighting injustice from 1949 to 1954. I also thought it was fair enough for him to die. Ten of my relatives, including my siblings, died because of Ta Mok. I started hating him in 1972: at that time he changed from a rabbit to a bear.
What was your relationship with Pol Pot?
I met him many times: the first was on March 12, 1950 and the last time was March 18, 1970. At first we talked about the movement against the French. He had a good background and he had a good character at the time. Like Ta Mok he started to change around 1968 when he became influenced too much by China and became a Maoist.
Why did you leave the Khmer Rouge in 1974?
It was caused by different views on policy. They had started to trample on the people and were following Mao. There was no justice. I went to Vietnam as a refugee. At the time Vietnam didn't want me to stay. They thought I was a spy for the Khmer Rouge. I tried to explain that the Khmer Rouge were killing Cambodian people and that one day Pol Pot will try to invade Vietnam. At the time they didn't believe me. It wasn't until 1977 that Vietnam believed me. They asked me to select people in border areas who were unhappy with the Khmer Rouge to come to be trained in Hanoi. Among these people were Chea Sim, Hun Sen and Say Phou Thang and others who are now running the present government.
What was your first impression of Hun Sen?
First, he is a very proud man. He has always had one characteristic: he knows that Vietnam believes in him. I appointed him to be a member of the Front. I knew that the leaders in Vietnam thought Hun Sen was young and clever, but he had no experience and spoke no other languages. In October 1978, when I saw that they wanted to promote Hun Sen I went to them and asked them not to promote him. I asked that they not let Hun Sen be so proud. He was only in his 20s at the time.
Do you regret asking Vietnam to come into Cambodia to fight the Khmer Rouge?
I have no regret. I was the one who asked them to help, and they helped a lot of people. But I asked for assistance, not an invasion.
To what extent does Vietnam continue to have an influence in Cambodia government?
You must understand, Vietnam does not want to make Cambodia better. They want Cambodia's economy to collapse. There is Vietnamese influence from top officials to basic officials and the police. The people don't like this, they have never liked the Vietnamese style.
Are you a communist?
I am not a member of any Communist Party. Communism itself is not bad, but its implementation has been bad. Communism states clearly to respect human rights, the poor and the benefit of the nation. I stopped believing in communism in March 1981 because communist regimes have slow economic growth, and under the powerful people in the party, citizens don't have freedom.
Why were you removed as prime minister?
The party leaders in Hanoi were trying to control everything in Cambodia: the military, immigration and the economy. First, they accused me of building a free-market economy that was against communist practice. Second, they accused me of being a "narrow-minded nationalist" for speaking out against Vietnamese immigration. Third, that I was disobedient for not respecting orders from Hanoi. There were other things, too. I was against the K5 program [a strategic military belt along the Thai border] and I had started an airport tax. The charges weren't real. They were designed to arrest me, and the leaders of the Front agreed.
After you, the next Prime Minister was Chan Si. In Margaret Slocumb's book The People's Republic of Kampuchea 1979-1989 [pp 143-144], she wrote that you believed Chan Si was killed by Hun Sen at a banquet in Phnom Penh in 1987. How did Chan Si die?
I could not give any comments about how the former Prime Minister Chan Si died because I could get in trouble if I speak. This [story] has a lot of secrets.
In October 1991, the People's Revolutionary Party of Kampuchea (PRPK) officially abandoned Marxism-Leninism and changed its name to the CPP. Since that time, has the CPP acted in a democratic fashion or a communistic fashion?
Until now the ruling party was communist. Now they speak of democracy, but it's just talk. It's communist inside. I have seen that the CPP's hierarchy and policies are formed in the communist fashion. They talk about democracy just because it sounds good. In reality what they implement is not the same as what they say. Cambodian people have never had real democracy. The country is controlled by powerful people, and the poor people are their slaves.
In your career in politics, what are you most proud of?
That no one could ever buy me.
Are you a patriot?
I don't want to be judged by words from my lips, but rather from my actions in the past.
Today, he sits in a wooden gazebo over a fish pond behind his home in Takeo town. Tacked to the wooden walls are sepia-tinted photographs of Sovann alongside CPP stalwarts Hun Sen, Chea Sim, Say Phou Thong. In one he's standing in the back of a Soviet jeep reviewing troops in front of the Royal Palace in 1980. In another he's sharing a light moment with retired King Norodom Sihanouk. It's a comfortable home, but modest for a former head of state who has visited the White House, the Pentagon and the Kremlin. Besides the occasional foreign reporter or diplomat (former US Ambassador Charles Ray once lunched here), his days are undisturbed. He's the president of the National Sustaining Party of Cambodia, but the party sign in front of his home is adorned with rust and peeling paint. The government has been labeling him mentally ill for years.
Sovann once told the Post: "Cambodian politics has the head of a chicken and the ass of a duck. They speak about democracy and multiple political parties, but they practice communist ways."
He spoke to Charles McDermid on February 17 about Ta Mok, Hun Sen and the CPP's lingering links to communism.
Why do so many people have the opinion that you're crazy?
This comes from Hun Sen. In 1993 he made a statement to the people saying I had mental problems. The people asked: "Where is Pen Sovann now?" And Hun Sen said he's still alive, but he's stupid now and when he talks he foams at the mouth. This isn't true. A person should be
judged by how they act.
What was it like to work with "The Butcher" Ta Mok?
I met Ta Mok in August, 1949. Later, I became his bodyguard and adviser. At the time he was teaching people about resistance tactics. He was a good help to many people. At that time he was a good person with a good character. He started to change around 1968.
How did you react when you learned Ta Mok died last year?
I had two feelings. First I felt very sorry to lose the person who taught me about fighting injustice from 1949 to 1954. I also thought it was fair enough for him to die. Ten of my relatives, including my siblings, died because of Ta Mok. I started hating him in 1972: at that time he changed from a rabbit to a bear.
What was your relationship with Pol Pot?
I met him many times: the first was on March 12, 1950 and the last time was March 18, 1970. At first we talked about the movement against the French. He had a good background and he had a good character at the time. Like Ta Mok he started to change around 1968 when he became influenced too much by China and became a Maoist.
Why did you leave the Khmer Rouge in 1974?
It was caused by different views on policy. They had started to trample on the people and were following Mao. There was no justice. I went to Vietnam as a refugee. At the time Vietnam didn't want me to stay. They thought I was a spy for the Khmer Rouge. I tried to explain that the Khmer Rouge were killing Cambodian people and that one day Pol Pot will try to invade Vietnam. At the time they didn't believe me. It wasn't until 1977 that Vietnam believed me. They asked me to select people in border areas who were unhappy with the Khmer Rouge to come to be trained in Hanoi. Among these people were Chea Sim, Hun Sen and Say Phou Thang and others who are now running the present government.
What was your first impression of Hun Sen?
First, he is a very proud man. He has always had one characteristic: he knows that Vietnam believes in him. I appointed him to be a member of the Front. I knew that the leaders in Vietnam thought Hun Sen was young and clever, but he had no experience and spoke no other languages. In October 1978, when I saw that they wanted to promote Hun Sen I went to them and asked them not to promote him. I asked that they not let Hun Sen be so proud. He was only in his 20s at the time.
Do you regret asking Vietnam to come into Cambodia to fight the Khmer Rouge?
I have no regret. I was the one who asked them to help, and they helped a lot of people. But I asked for assistance, not an invasion.
To what extent does Vietnam continue to have an influence in Cambodia government?
You must understand, Vietnam does not want to make Cambodia better. They want Cambodia's economy to collapse. There is Vietnamese influence from top officials to basic officials and the police. The people don't like this, they have never liked the Vietnamese style.
Are you a communist?
I am not a member of any Communist Party. Communism itself is not bad, but its implementation has been bad. Communism states clearly to respect human rights, the poor and the benefit of the nation. I stopped believing in communism in March 1981 because communist regimes have slow economic growth, and under the powerful people in the party, citizens don't have freedom.
Why were you removed as prime minister?
The party leaders in Hanoi were trying to control everything in Cambodia: the military, immigration and the economy. First, they accused me of building a free-market economy that was against communist practice. Second, they accused me of being a "narrow-minded nationalist" for speaking out against Vietnamese immigration. Third, that I was disobedient for not respecting orders from Hanoi. There were other things, too. I was against the K5 program [a strategic military belt along the Thai border] and I had started an airport tax. The charges weren't real. They were designed to arrest me, and the leaders of the Front agreed.
After you, the next Prime Minister was Chan Si. In Margaret Slocumb's book The People's Republic of Kampuchea 1979-1989 [pp 143-144], she wrote that you believed Chan Si was killed by Hun Sen at a banquet in Phnom Penh in 1987. How did Chan Si die?
I could not give any comments about how the former Prime Minister Chan Si died because I could get in trouble if I speak. This [story] has a lot of secrets.
In October 1991, the People's Revolutionary Party of Kampuchea (PRPK) officially abandoned Marxism-Leninism and changed its name to the CPP. Since that time, has the CPP acted in a democratic fashion or a communistic fashion?
Until now the ruling party was communist. Now they speak of democracy, but it's just talk. It's communist inside. I have seen that the CPP's hierarchy and policies are formed in the communist fashion. They talk about democracy just because it sounds good. In reality what they implement is not the same as what they say. Cambodian people have never had real democracy. The country is controlled by powerful people, and the poor people are their slaves.
In your career in politics, what are you most proud of?
That no one could ever buy me.
Are you a patriot?
I don't want to be judged by words from my lips, but rather from my actions in the past.
31 comments:
There is a problem here,Pen Sovann said things but mean nothing.He was responsible for Hanoi occupation and an anti feudalism by nature.
Bittersweet past,convince Hanoi to denigrate his standing.He should work vigorously with opposing groups to remove CPP from power in 2008.
This sentence from Pen Sovan is absolutely true "To what extent does Vietnam continue to have an influence in Cambodia government?
You must understand, Vietnam does not want to make Cambodia better. They want Cambodia's economy to collapse. There is Vietnamese influence from top officials to basic officials and the police. The people don't like this, they have never liked the Vietnamese style."
I do believe in him that people can not better through CPP led by Hun Sen because all machanism are controled and planned by Hanio.
But will Pen Sovann another game actor from Hanio?
However, change present government first, we must change it immediately to break Hanoi's frameworks...for the future changes and stability....
The man has guts. Cambodia needs more like him.
Alright Mr. Penn Sovann!!!!!!!!!!!
With great respect & love,
Ordinary Khmers
A good summary of Vietnam's occupation strategy that Pen Sovann said is really a good snapshot of the past relationship between Cambodia and Vietnam. I believe that no one love Khmer than the Khmer people, and it is hard to find someone who help us without expecting a gift (intentionally or unintentionally) in the future. K5 is just one of the strategies to steal Khmer resources (forest, mines,...etc) and to eliminate Khmer by pushing them to walk in the mine fields and malaria pandemic zone.
Vietnamese's strategies to invade, exploit and control Cambodia is so invisible, but it seems just nothing for those who are power-hungry like some of the top Khmer leaders.
A Khmer Student.
Join hands to make better Cambodia through you and me!
Pen Sovann and SRP need to work together for a better Cambodia. Pen Sovann used to be Ah Sen's boss and was jailed by the See Pee Pee in Hanoi; therefore he knows the Communist system so well. On the other hand Sam Rainsy got educated from the West and understands Western polictics with no doubt. Both want real democracy for Cambodia, but they have different approach on how to achieve their goal. However if they compromise on merging their difference, they would have a great oppositional force to the SEE PEE PEE killer. Sound simple, if they are real patriot they will consider what is best for the national interest.
if his last statement are true, "that he couldn't be bought". then he should be forgiven for ASKING hanoi for assistant, not an invasion. He shoudl speak up more, what else does he has loose? if he wants to make cambodia better and regrets some of his decisons, than now is the time. Inside man.
Dear all compatriots with all goals.
Be genuine with yourself and others, and u'll succeed in the future.
Lover yourself and love others.
We all have to shape our brains by continuing our education as far as possible. The more education we all have the stronger we get, and we can help out our country in a positive way with no means of violence in any forms whatsoever.
Use our knowlegde to spread the horizon of the country!!
[Your fellow Khmer Compatriot]
With respect from Dow Under Laukta Pen Sovann,
I would like to thank for your honest & your patriostim toward our Cambodia & its People.
I learned that you had the Anti-Yuon immegration in Cambodia & the plot of Yuon K5....and also I was a witness of one occasion with late Laukta Keo Chenda when he was the Minister of Information & Propaganda.He said :" I don't trust the Vietnamese ".
It was in June 1979 before I left Cambodia.
Cheers,
Bun H.
Dear prey mith jati Khmer.
He can talked but not you.
Watch out youn had so many traps.
I love and respected Khmer's LIFE.
Hun SEn and all of gangs has used demmocracy as a joke to please United State. They know one they talk about Democracy and multi-parties politic, United state and all the western world will keep quiet about his authority. They just killed a few activists before elections, all other activists will be scared to death and the result of the election will be in their favours. To enforce the real democacy system, everyone must enforce all national institution to have their credibility, their reliability and their own indenpence decision.
Don't forget that this MOTHERFUCKER PEN SOVANN was a communist and a khmer rouge cadre. He fought alongside with VIETCONGS against the khmer republic. But when he found out that yuons were about to swallow his country it was already too late.In my view this DIRTY BASTARD was not and is not a nationalist at all. AS to why he's against the CPP, the answer is simple,he is jealous or he was outsmarted, and he was hurt psychologically....or CHANH BORK YUONS....
yes anon 5:53AM, he killed his own people and hope that foreigners are kind to his country. This asshole should be HANGED period....
KHMENG WAT KHNONG SROK
JUST LEAVE POLITICS TO CAMBODIAN INSIDE CAMBODIA!
OVERSEAS IDIOT KHMER JUST SHUT YOUR MOUTH OF ANIMALS BECAUSE YOU ARE SO IGNORANT AND JUST STAY OFF CAMBODIA.
YOU DO NOT DESERVE ANY RESPECT FROM US....
KHMENG WAT KHNONG SROK
TO ALL ENEMY
THERE IS AN IMPOSTER TRYING TO BE ME BUT AS YOU CAN FEEL IN HIS COMMENT, YOU SMELL THE ODOUR OF ANIMALS OR KHMER OVERSEAS BEAST IN UNCLE SAM RAIN SHIT...
TO KIMEDIA
YOUR AMBITION IS NOT MATCHING WITH THE INTENTION YOU HAVE BY CREATING THIS WEB. JUST TO POUR OIL ON THE FIRE, ISN'T IT?
BETTER TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAMES BY BETTER EDUCATIONG ALL THOSE ANIMALS OVERSEAS KHMER TO LEARN ABOUT CIVILITY AND SAVOIR-VIVRE . IF NOT IT IS A SHAME FOR UNCLE SAM!
I just would like to let you know that do not pay attention to Khmeng Wath Knoung Srok's comment any more because he is evil. When he was born his mother was busy fucking with Hun Sen's father.....Fuck Kheng Wath Knong Pieng Prahouk.. ha..ha..ha..
Khmeng Wat Knong Srok,
This is not a threat but rather a promise from me to you - when I get my hand on you, I will cut your prick off with my big cleaver knife [kombett PAING TAUR] and feed it to the Viet black dog.
[Ah khmeng wat knong srok - niss minn main jear peark kom hearm kom raing teh, taer p'tuy tov vinh vear jear peark soniya pi anh tov ah aing: perl anh jab ah aing barn anh nirng york kombett PANG TAUR roboss anh katt ka'dor ah aing auy chhk'aer khmao YUON si]
Yep, I can tell from the picture
that Pen Sovann is certainly a
depressed nut case, no doubt about
it.
Thanks to Hanoi for taking the
dangerous maniac down for us.
Long Live Great Vietnam!!!
yeb, ah yuon shit
your youn shit type will bring u down too in the end.
long live khmer nation
down withnthe yuon dogs
SI K'DOY YOUN
Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Why ah vear so upset about youn , aren't their used your ass as to ease off their sexula urge ? What's the big matter to yup about yuon with a yuon dicks in ah vear mouth ? Ah vear probably the worthless punk working in Mac Donalds and never seen any real life. Fuck ya.
That does made a lot of senses.
KWKS 's comment is a distraction to the main issue. Once everyone is responding to the comments, KWKS become active and powerful. However, if we ignore it, KWKS becomes nonsense and useless.
This KWKS 's comment should be ignored and save space and time for constructive comments.
Mr. Sovann was falling from grace of being cambodia's P.M, because he didn't agree with the Viet runing Cambodia.
What else would make a man more guilty in Viet's eyes than that?
We don't care what anybody says.
Mr. Pen Sovann is Khmer's Hero. A good and fine Khmer's Man from head to toes. He isn't crazy. Other people are crazy.
We are looking right at a man who can think what is right and what is wrong for one. He changes according to it and regardless of a price he has to pay and he paid to live in a sack instead of a mansion or having millions of dollars in their bank accounts likes others do.
Do we need to mantion their names? Those people rather go to sleep with guilt than live a life like Mr. Pen Sovann does. They cann't do it.
This is what all khmers should see and sees that someone like Mr. Pen Sovann said to himself " No one could ever buy him ".
He is a man of full grace. A man of his own man.
Like it or not. HE IS A MAN OF GREAT SELF RESPECT. HE JUST HASN'T MET THE RIGHT PERSON OR PEOPLE, YET. GOOD LUCK AND BEST WISHES TO YOU MR. PEN SOVANN! YOU'RE ALRIGHT!!! AND WE LOVE YOU! GOD BLESS!
Ordianry Khmers
Mr.Soavnn was falling from grace of bieng Cambodia's PM, because he didn't agree with the Viet runing Cambodia.
WHAT ELSE WOULD MAKE A MAN MORE GUILTY IN VIET'S EYES THAN THAT?
We don't care what anybody says.
MR. PEN SOVANN IS KHMER'S HERO. A GOOD AND FINE KHMER'S MAN FROM HEAD TO TOES. HE ISN'T CRAZY. OTHER PEOPLE JUST DON'T SEE WHO HE REALLY IS.
WE ARE LOOKING RIGHT AT A MAN WHO CAN THINK WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG FOR ONE AND FOR CAMBODIA ALONE.
He changed according to it and regardless of a price he has to pay and he had paid to live in a sack instead of a mansion or having millions of dollars in their bank accounts likes others do.
Do we need to mention their names? Those people rather go to sleep feeling guilty than live a life like Mr. Pen Sovann. They cann't do it. It is too extremely difficult for them to do so.
THIS is WHAT ALL KHMERS SHOULD SEE AND SEES THAT SOMEONE LIKE MR.PEN SOVANN HAD SAID TO HIMSELF AND HAD TOLD THE WORLD THAT " NO ONE COULD EVER BUY HIM".
He is a man of full grace. A man of his own man. He did not want to plung Cambodia entirely in the VIET'D HANDS AND HE SAID" NO!" AND MEANT IT!.
Like it or not:
HE IS A MAN OF GREAT SELF-RESPECT AND THE GREAT RESPECT HE HAS FOR CAMBODIA" OR HIS VERY OWN COUNTRY LIKE US.
HE JUST HASN'T MET THE RIGHT PERSON OR PEOPLE, YET. GOOD LUCK TO YOU MR. PEN SOVANN! YOU ARE ALRIGHT!!! AND WE LOVE YOU!!!! MAY GOD BLESS!!!!!!!
Ordinary khmers
ONE LAST ADVICE TO YOU MR. PEN,
NO MORE RUNNING BACK AND FORWARD TO THE VIET. THEY ARE NO LONGER YOUR SAVIOR. IT'S OVER AND LET MAKING IT FOREVER. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE SIR!
Ordinary Khmers
Ah PEN SOVANN was a khmer vietming who was, at one time, associated with killer of such calibre TAMOK. This MOTHERFUCKER had blood of innocent khmers in his hands. I don't know why anybody would call him a HERO.iF he a truly khmer, he should not join communists YUONS in the first place.
In all this MOTHERFUCKER is a dumb ass,ignorant,stupid who led himself USED by the vietnameses to kill his own people , and get paid back by Yuons ( 10 years in jail in HANOI) what a bastard stupid ass.
KHMENG WAT KHNONG SROK
JUST TO SAY IDIOT AND AH PLEOU!
HOW FAR YOUR COMMENTS COULD GO? WHO CARES ABOUT???
KHMENG WAT KHNONG SROK
Kaune Khmers,
Youn love to see you are fighting with each other then they are busy to make new plan to swallow our MOTHERLAND because Kaune Khmer fight Kaune Khmer under youn traps.
Yep, and we can all thank KK and
their KI Media for that.
AH YOUN HANOI (VIETNAMESS), AH HUN SEN, AH HOK LONG DY....lISTEN TO ME OK...
GET THE HELL OUT OFF MY COUNTRY.
GOD WILL PUNISH YOU AND YOUR MOTHER FUCKER...
ALL CAMBODIAN HERO WHO PASSED AWAY WILL COME AND GET YOU TO THE HELL SOON.
I HAAAAAAAAAAAT YOU...
OH, I FORGOT, AH KHMENG WAT KNOUNG SROK TOO; DON'T FORGET TO REMOVE THE NAME OF KHMENG WAT BACK TO KHMER PEOPLE BECAUSE THE REAL KHMENG WAT ARE VERY GENTLE AND ARE TOUGHT TO BE GOOD CHILDREN BY THE CAMBODIAN MONK. SO,STOP USING THE NAME OF KHMENG WAT.
CAMBODIAN PEOPLE
Excellent post. Your predictions are very much in line with what we are expecting to see in the near future.
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