Heng Reaksmey, VOA Khmer
Exclusive Interview from Phnom Penh
15 October 2007
[Editor's note: Head of state and spokesman for the Khmer Rouge when it rose to power, Khieu Samphan is widely believed under investigation by the special tribunal courts for trial on atrocity crimes. On Oct. 11, he gave VOA Khmer his longest interview since the indictments of two of his comrades, chief ideologue Nuon Chea and torture center director Duch. This is part three of a five-part series.]
The Khmer Rouge was formed to fight foreigners, not kill its own, the former public face of the regime said.
"Why would it kill its own people?" Khieu Samphan asked. "For what reason? Who would live in the country then?"
Khieu Samphan, who has already selected a foreign attorney to defend him against possible indictment by Cambodia's hybrid tribunal, said he had not heard of the killing fields, of the starvation suffered by his countrymen, until at least the 1980s.
Cambodians "were hungry and dug up tubers. I didn't know it was like that. I found out at the end of 1989."
Given room to speak, Khieu Samphan raises points that have been raised before, shifting blame from the Khmer Rouge for its autogenocide to foreign powers, often the Vietnamese and the Americans.
The Khmer Rouge "fighting movement experienced plight, hunger, sickness, slept in trenches," Khieu Samphan said. "B-52 bombs were dropped [and] when you were just near them, you became crazy because you were so frightened."
The Khmer Rouge rose out of loyalty to its leaders, he said, as much as the bombing.
"Leaders would ask us to crawl into a crab hole," he said, a common Cambodian expression that describes loyalty.
The Khmer Rouge had loyalty structure where each person had a group, or strand, and every strand spied on the other, he said.
Khieu Samphan said the evacuations in 1975, when the Khmer Rouge took power, were Pol Pot's idea. So too was discipline.
"Those who were good and worked hard, should be encouraged," he said, "and those who opposed, should be dealt with accordingly."
Vietnamese interference might have been the reason so many people began starving once they were forced out of the city and into agricultural work camps, Khieu Samphan said.
"What did the starvation from 1975 to 1976 come from?" he said. "Not from Pol Pot. Could Pol Pot do it alone?"
The Khmer Rouge was formed to fight foreigners, not kill its own, the former public face of the regime said.
"Why would it kill its own people?" Khieu Samphan asked. "For what reason? Who would live in the country then?"
Khieu Samphan, who has already selected a foreign attorney to defend him against possible indictment by Cambodia's hybrid tribunal, said he had not heard of the killing fields, of the starvation suffered by his countrymen, until at least the 1980s.
Cambodians "were hungry and dug up tubers. I didn't know it was like that. I found out at the end of 1989."
Given room to speak, Khieu Samphan raises points that have been raised before, shifting blame from the Khmer Rouge for its autogenocide to foreign powers, often the Vietnamese and the Americans.
The Khmer Rouge "fighting movement experienced plight, hunger, sickness, slept in trenches," Khieu Samphan said. "B-52 bombs were dropped [and] when you were just near them, you became crazy because you were so frightened."
The Khmer Rouge rose out of loyalty to its leaders, he said, as much as the bombing.
"Leaders would ask us to crawl into a crab hole," he said, a common Cambodian expression that describes loyalty.
The Khmer Rouge had loyalty structure where each person had a group, or strand, and every strand spied on the other, he said.
Khieu Samphan said the evacuations in 1975, when the Khmer Rouge took power, were Pol Pot's idea. So too was discipline.
"Those who were good and worked hard, should be encouraged," he said, "and those who opposed, should be dealt with accordingly."
Vietnamese interference might have been the reason so many people began starving once they were forced out of the city and into agricultural work camps, Khieu Samphan said.
"What did the starvation from 1975 to 1976 come from?" he said. "Not from Pol Pot. Could Pol Pot do it alone?"
29 comments:
Khieu Samphan asked "What did the starvation from 1975 to 1976 come from?"
Three simple things happened,
1-lack of infrastructure to monitor abuse of power by cadres out of vebgeance
2-each regional authority is in its own dictation
3-collecting anything valuable to repay Viet Cong
He countered a rhetorical line "Not from Pol Pot. Could Pol Pot do it alone?"
Indeed not Pol Pot alone,who else he implied? Did the gray revolutionary prince has anything to do with?
Bet you indeed from turning other cheek for US B-52's bombardment to destroy all Lon Nol and following when victory was ours.
"What did the starvation from 1975 to 1976 come from?" he said. "Not from Pol Pot. Could Pol Pot do it alone?"
The starvation is inevitable if the war continued instead KR captured the capitol. It would have been worse if that were the case.
Not necessary, between July 1975 until the harvest then toward the end 1976,certain area in NW region people still have enough to eat but the Angkar moha loat phloss wanted to repay with new crop to China and Yuon within Angkar five plan (1.
Some cadres pledged much crop from the allocated ration beyond Angkar requirement to double please the monstrous Angkar.Some pointed out if I (KR fighter)could eat Kduoch and sleuk chhoeu prey to fight the imperialists then why not the 17 April prisoners?
This is true while thousands were deprived foog and basic needs Khaek Pen and family lived like feudal lord with plenty of meat,rice and whiskey imported from Aranyaprathet,Siam market.
The Master of Neo-Genocidal of Cambodians:
Brief of Hard Factual evens: Continue...
Situation of the communist side:
The Yuon Communist Party was founded in 1930, under the name of " Communist Party of Indochina "[C.P.I].
Yuon Viêtminh become Yuon Viêtcông, abbreviation : [NVA/VC//NFL] their main goal are to seize the territories of the other countries.
They are extremely thinking the opposite from any other asian countries. If they move towards from north they’ll run up against [Thailand] and [Laos] they through, if towards the west, they run up against the montagnards. Consequently, they’ve chosen to move towards the south. Since they having "swallowed" Champa, they arrived at Kampuchea Krom and "swallowed" Kampuchea Krom.
Since 1930-45-54, in order to carry out thess strategic political programs, Yuon Communist prepared their forces and formed their frameworks successively, and send them to work in Laos and Cambodia, leaded by Nguyên Thanh.
Therefore, they moved towards the North-West, towards Cambodia, by using their Lucrative strategies of massive installation forces for their insurgency by launching their initial polical operations in the provinces of Stung Trèng, Ratanakiri, Mondulriki, Kratié, Kampong Cham, Svay Rieng, Prey Véng, Kandal, Takeo and Kampot, Koh Kong, Pursat, until Kampong Chhnang and around a Great Lakes of Tonlé Sap, those massive installations forces were the main Yuon Communist attacks forces, who have owned safe haven sanctuaries in Cambodia.
Furthermore, they used these forces to attack into American’s Bases in South Viêtnam and run back to hide in their owned safe haven sanctuaries in Cambodia.
In 1965, there were 150,000 Yuon [Viêtcôngs] installed in Cambodia on a depth from 12 to 15 kilometers inside the border, at Romeas Hèk (province of Svay Rieng) and wide spread until Ratanakiri, which’s the area known as " Tail of Naga ", in the extreme quiet of North-East of Cambodia.
In 1966, they send another wave, with the amount up to 200,000 Yuon [Viêtcông] and it further increased in 1967-68-69.
The Committee of “Quang Duc” was installed 150,000 in Koh Nhêk, in the province of Ratanakiri of Cambodia.
In 1970, the number of Viêtcông installed in Cambodia has gradually reached up to 1,5 to 2 million.
Towards the end of 1969, delegations from Hanoi whose name: Lê Duan, Lê Duke Thô, Vô Nguyên Giap and Nguyên Duy Trinh.
Lê Duan said: "According to viêtnamese experiment , kampuchea should not carry out the armed struggle. It is better that the comrades of Kampuchea await until Viêtnam victory in south viêtname first, and viêtnam will strikes Lon Nol of only one blow, and viêtnam will liberate Phnom Penh for comrades kampuchea."
Yuon Hanoi, Lê Duan wanted to lead the Communist Party of Kampuchea and establish relationships to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. It reported that the Soviet ambassador in Hanoi wished to meet the delegation of the Communist Party of Kampuchea to pay a visit to Moscow.
Thus, before the coup d'etat, on march 9-10-11, 1970 the Yuon Viêtcông had used their strategies as the following stage:
1- Make Prince Norodom Sihanouk go to war with Lon Nol.
2- Infiltrated viêtnamese and clandestine networks into the rows of high ranking officials of the revolution of Kampuchea.
3- Used their Viêtnamese national inside of Kampuchea to control and to become the local government. [with armed]. to be cont....
EX-Fark/Fank
DN/DMR/OCC/3B/2B
What a load of crap ex fart...
Yep.
EX-Fark/Fank
You are a typical Ignorant Khmer Rouge who still see your compatriots as enemies.
Shutup, just study man, study.
"Why would it kill its own people?" Khieu Samphan asked. "For what reason? Who would live in the country then?"
that is the most stupid thing I ever heard off. OMG! they gonna nail his stupid ass.
In a culture revolution, you don't kill all people. You kill all rebels so that they don't rise against you. You kill spies, You suppress religion to prevent spy infiltration... And that should add up to a good fraction of the population.
For Khieu Samphan to ask stupid question like that and be high level official doesn't make any sense, and he will lose credibility before most of the judges.
EX-Fark/Fank
This is one of your ignorance:
Viêtcông had used their strategies as the following stage:
1- Make Prince Norodom Sihanouk go to war with Lon Nol.
Does Sihanouk has any brain? Does he make decision based on Vietcong order? Does he know right from wrong, bad from good?
The Master of Neo-Genocidal of Cambodians:
Situation from Yuon Hanoi to [FARK]:
On 24th May 1969 Lon Nol meet with Yuon Hanoi representatives Nguyên Thuöng and the NFL delegate Nguyên Van Hieü. The purpose of this meeting was to tell the [NVA/VC/NFL] to stop from committing violation against Cambodia territory, violations which were frequent and becoming more and more serious aggressive on Cambodia. Yuon Viêtcông Enemy simply ignored Cambodia’s request.
In early march 1970, since [NVA/VC/NFL] forces continued to exert pressure on the local Khmer people in Svay Rieng to manifest their dissatisfaction toward the intruders. These popular manifestations met with relations from the enemy and resulted in heavy casualties.
On 11-12 march 1970, the [NVA/VC/NFL] demonstrating once again Yuon viêtcông’s skillful use of propagandas and guiles and deceptions to provoked a widespread feeling of discontent among the people which cuminated in destructive rampages against the [NVA/VC/NFL] and [PRG] embassies in Phnom Penh.
to be cont....
EX-Fark/Fank
DN/DMR/OCC/3B/2B
Well, if Sihanouk is stupid why is he still alive and his enemy is all crumbled?
To 5:59AM!
I am not surprised by what you said because the Vietcong were well entrenched in Cambodia even before Cambodia got her independence from France! I know for a fact when Cambodia got her independent from France in 1953 and King Sihanouk never dare challenge the Vietcong military even after he found out there were many and many Vietcong military personnel still stationing in Cambodia which violate Cambodia sovereignty! And King Sihanouk even asked the Vietcong military personal to leave Cambodia but no Vietcong budge until the Khmer Rouge took over and the Khmer Rouge began kicking some of the Vietcong military personal out of Cambodia but still there were too many Vietcong military personnel to be kicked out and a million more still live in Cambodia today! By the way, the French were reluctant to give Cambodia an independent because they afraid that the communist would swallow up Cambodia and maybe the French knew of something that King Sihanouk didn’t know!
I never thought for one moment that Cambodia had become a trophy for the Vietcong and thank in part to King Sihanouk! This is the Vietcong world where the Vietcong master and the Vietcong slaves reign supreme and nobody can judge them!
This is not a myth!
It appears that Khieu Samphan has already incriminated Hanoi, but VOA seems to toy and spin it with the translation...
The Master of Neo-Genocidal of Cambodians:
Brief of Hard Factual evens: Continue...
Situation of the communist side:
After the coup d'etat of March 18, 1970, the Yuon Viêtcông living in Cambodia were armed by Hanoi and used like instruments, with particularly wild oppression against the Cambodian. The local people hated them, and called them
" the Viêtnamese of local manufacture ".
These Viêtnamese nationals living in Cambodia, showed themselves infinitely, fiercely, crueler in their repression than their brothers from North Vietnam, because they knew the Khmer’s language and the Khmer’s inhabitants.
They persecuted the khmer’s population during their shadow powered year .This factor is found in the Viêtnamese history, since the time of feudality, and it weighs much heavier as the current time.
As they made the revolution, the Viêtnamese enjoyed a certain prestige in Southeast Asia. At that time, the international community, they're granted assistances and supports. Europe supported. China and Soviet helped and supported. The Viêtnamese benefited from all these supports, which is make their political strongest supports in order to implement and executed their complex plans of expansion and annexation and to swallow Cambodia.
They wanted to dominate the whole "Indochina". They wanted to be posed as "father" if not "big brother" of "Indochina".
(I'll be continued....these evens of each location/ province)
to be cont....
EX-Fark/Fank
DN/DMR/OCC/3B/2B
Kiev Samphan's commenting regarding KR regime is sound and accurate in some degrees, but it is not generally correct. However, listen to his words are worthy for younger generation of Cambodia before he will be tried.
1. First, all Khmers have to understand that Somdach Ta Sihanouk, Lon Nol and Pol Pot are just the political tool of Hanoi. Somdach Ta Sinahouk tried to neutralize Cambodia in order to avoid from Hanoi's expanding attempt. Lon Nol came to power under the fake support of US and tried to stand up firmly to oppose Hanoi. Pol Pot came to power with no clear vision to fight against Hanoi while Hanoi had already employed their cadres entirely Cambodia during combating with US as well as Lon Nol.
2. War and brutality in Cambodia are just the by-products of Vietcong war in the attempt to have controlling Indochina as the whole.
3. The attempt of Hanoi to control Indochina happened since the declining of Angkorean Period, the movement to free from French, the war against imperialist America, the toppling Pol Pot and the continuing installed CPP...
4. Through installing the CPP, the mission of Indochina's federation and legitimacy attempt is still continuing in Cambodia...
KY
9:11AM maybe they scared Somdachs
Like meas jon. he want to works at Cambodia about Star and a moon.
He is begging cambodian govt. to creat a job for him. Sok An said and huge laught, and Sok An walk away said damn.
The KR's policy of "moha lot plos moha oscha" (the great leap forward) was copied wholesale from Communist China. China used the same phrase during its cultural revolution resulting in the death of around 20 million Chinese people. Now, they recognise it was a big mistake but they are reluctant to blame Chairman Mao, who had actually initiated this policy.
The KR's copied version some years later caused the death of nearly 2 million Cambodians, mostly people from the city. It's a smaller number comparing to China, but China has over 1 billion people to spare. Cambodia had only 7 million people at the time.
Of course, the Viets are smart and they are united in their national objective. They outmanoeuvred China, their main benefactor during the Vietnam War, gained the total control of Indochina, and fulfilled Ho Chi Minh's dream.
Cambodian leaderships were outsmarted because they were not united in their national objective. Their lust for power was more important than the welfare of the nation. They feared that competent people would take over their jobs, so the smart and competent individuals, no matter how nationalistic they were, were killed off. So, we got a leadership with little brain to fight enemies in all corners. Even with the backing of mighty China, the Viets are still in full control of Cambodia and Laos. Aren't we learning something from history yet?
The Second Year Anniversay of Illegal Supplemental Treaty 15 October 2005.
Dear Beloved Countrymen,
Today is the second year anniversary of the extension for legal control of Vietnam over Cambodia legalized by a group of traitor leaders installed by the Vietnam in the 1979, i.e. the Supplemental Treaty signed by Hun Sen on October 15, 2005 which in its spirit to validate the 1985 illegal treaty back to life.
It is the day that we must remember and witness as long as we live from generation to generation that our territorial integrity and sovereign are sold to another country by our leader.
However, I personally never recognize the present day leader, Hun Sen, as the leader of Cambodia . In my eyes, he is just an unconstitutional leader, a traitor and an untruthful person.
This is because he has come to power constitutionally wrong started in the 1980s by Vietnem's instalation-puppet, directly killed hundreds of thausand Cambodian by K5 policy, in 1991 by threatening war after the lost f the election, in 1997 by coup, in 1998 by fraud and unfair election with hundreds of our beloved students, monks, and peasant killed and disappeared, in 2003 by amending the national constitution for his greedy power by means of the packet vote after national election in 2003.
With his unconstitutional Prime Ministership, he irresponsibly and authoritatively signed the illegal Supplemental Treaty on 15 October 2005 with Vietnam in order to validate the 1985 illegal treaty which violates the spirit of our national constitution and the 1991 Paris Peace Accord and with this he does undermine our national independency.
In order to get the public trust, he always keeps saying that all the Treaties signed in the 1980s do not make Cambodia loses her land, yet Cambodia will gain land from Vietnam through them because Vietnam are pity on us. However, he never keeps his promise and dare to face the reality. He politically never accepts any offer of evidences from our nationalists, scholars, and our beloved people who live along the border who witness the daily invasion. And more importantly, he never keeps his word. I do remember that I asked him to bet life with me in the case of territorial integrity in October 2005 after he signed the illegal Supplemental Treaty 15 October 2005 with Vietnam. Taking this opportunity, I would like to tell him officially that the bet is still valid and I do urge him to accept it in order to bring about the truth and bring back national unity, full independency, and pride as a Nation, otherwise I will never recognize him as a Cambodian leader or my leader forever but just a traitor and an untruthful person.
Let’s mourn together and condemn this act of Hun Sen!
Pang Sokheoun
Former President of SMD
PS: Please view the attached file t read the ld letter that I sent to bet with hun sen in 2005.
Yuon secret agents/spies, who are well-educated in Khmer culture, tradition, language, religion and custom...etc. can speak, read and write Khmer much better than about 80% of Khmer peasants and farmers do, had secretly impersonated themselves as KR soldiers who were unfairly accused of killing their own people, but the most of killers are Yuon spies/Secret agents are all behind killing fields like Trinh Ba Cam, a spokesman for the Vietnamese Embassy, who can speak Khmer fluently when we heard his voice on RFA at 2007/08/17 05:30
After all Khmer victims really hated Angkar Leu/Cap Tren. Suddenly Yuon troops pretended to rescue us from their comrade-at arms KR. In fact nearly murderers are Yuon/Yavana secret agents/spies! They didn't want themselves to get caught in International Law/UN so they had to use their Yuon citizens who used to live in Cambodia before 1970 by borrowing KR's hands to kill our family members. Aren't they cunning like a fox?
U believe me or not. It's up to you! But u look at Kampuchea Krom and Champa which are clearly erased on the World Map, already.
Khmer sralanh/love Khmer!
King Jayavarman VII was reincarnated as DR Joshua Cooper who cares for his Khmer people in the 21st century trying to free Cambodian victims from oppressors, human rights violators and brutal Yavana/Yuon colonialists and communists/Commo leaders who are the worst violators of human rights on earth.
Thank you so much to Dr Joshua Cooper!
King Chey Chetha II was Reincarnated as Hun Sen, who loves sex with Yuon/Yavana taxigirls, serves his Hanoi masters to keep him in power so that any Yavana can come to live in Cambodia freely and safely. So in 30/50 years' time, Cambodia will be overpopulated by Yuon parasites/leeches like Champa and Khmer Krom for sure.
When Hun Sen, dies one day, whose body is buried without salt. (=No Coffin for him.) But if he can change his mind by protecting all his Khmer people during KRT, he will be considered as a Khmer National Hero until the end of earth.
Khmer sralanh Khmer said...
If we Victims of Vietnamese Hidden Faces Behind Killing Fields use microscope to find out Yuon/Yavana secret agents/spies secretly have been hiding in Cambodia since the Murderous French Colonial Period, we still can't find out any of them killing Khmer innocent people from 1975-1979, but if we can speak, read and write Yuon then we must impersonate ourselves working with Yuon restaurant owners or any department in both Cambodia and Khmer Krom and then we know all One Million Super-Dirty Demonic tricks all Yuon Hanoian Commo leaders used to kill Cambodians secretly in the name of Angkar Leu/Cap Tren. That's why A Chinese Proverb goes like this: What you see is not a true sign; [but] what you can’t see is a true sign. (Yuon secret agents/spies secretly used in cunning killing and rescuing operation. It means to kill Cambodian innocent people by using Yuon citizens living in Cambodia as KR and then they started to rescue Cambodians from the killing fields. Nearly whether all educated and uneducated Cambodians who are terribly misled that KR brutally killed their country fellowmen by thanking Yuon troops as their rescuers.)
Murderous Hanoian Leaders' One Million Super-Dirty Demonic Tricks are used to round up all Khmer nationalists who have a real human gut to reclaim our lands from Yuon coconut shells.
Yuon/Yavana secret agents/spies everywhere in Cambodia stirring up all unrests in the country can arrest any Khmer nationalist/KK by blaming to undermine Cambodia's relationship with Vietnam.
All Khmer compatriots must wake up from your day-dreams that Yuon coconut shells came to rescue you and your family from Pol Pot. In fact, the real murderers are all but Yuon/Yavana secret agents/ spies who secretly had impersonated themselves as the KR.
English proverb: Truth will out. (The truth always becomes known.)
All Killing Fields were secretly created by Vietnamese/Yavana secret agents/spies in order to erase all Cambodian race on earth. They have secretly been killing Cambodian people since 18th Century up until now. Read Khmer History of Tae Ong.
Murderous Hanoian commo leaders who are so cunning didn't want themselves to get caught in action so they used their Yuon/Yavana citizens, who used to live in Cambodia before 1970, are well-educated in Khmer language, culture, tradition, custom, and religion...etc. to have impersonated themselves as the Khmer Rouge soldiers to brutally kill Cambodian innocent people.
Now there are more than 4000 000 illegal Yuon citizens living in Cambodia so far so worse, many of whom are former Khmer Rouge soldiers/killers.
Hanoi commo leaders from now on in a big trouble when all Khmer Rouge leaders are put on trial with the UN in Phnom Penh. My Khmer compatriots, you will take revengeful action against Yuon citizens living in Cambodia. And Murderous Hanoi leaders will secretly order their secret agents to kill Khmer Krom people in revengeful manner.
There will be a big turmoil on its way to be erupted like earthquake soon during the KR Trial! Khmer victims will take revengefulness against Yuon who will kill KK in KK in return.
Trust in Lord Buddha!
Khmer Sralanh Khmer/Khmer love Khmer!
Nope, there is no such thing as Yuon agent can imitate khmer. Only Ah Khmer-Yuons can do that.
Your lakaun bassac is not selling, dude. Try another one.
Hey guys, I think Khieu Samphan's old age has made him incompetence. So far, I found his testimonies are self incriminating. I don't thing his mind is at a level of what a high official person should be at.
Do you think it is right to trial an incompetence person? I need opinions from all if you don't mind.
All of these Khmer Rouge now a day know how to talk a good game. One must remembers that's how they won the heart and soul of the innocent people who helped bringing them to power. If they were this compassionate, patriotic, and forgiven, 2 millions of our people wouldn't have died under their thumbs.
That is not the truth. The truth is KR wanted to change Cambodia just like Sam Rainsy wants to change Cambodia. However, both were obsessed and drowned in their vision that they don't see that they are harming khmer people in the process.
10:06pm Yes itt is right to trial any crimonal and killers they are competence or not incompetence or the pretend to be crazy!
they need to face their crime and it is a good sample for our next generation to think before they act!
Okay, there nothing wrong with that. I mean who is the authority on morality, right?
Can someone else contribute more opinion. Don't worry about right or wrong. Just let it rip.
Yes, sure! that probably his adviser or lawyer had instructed him to say so. Let's just blaim on the death man and get ourself out of this. Sure!
Gentlemen,
vietnam is rejecting all the contradictory in here, khmer rouge is just the big liar and the king Sihanouk know that too, khmer rouge is the liar and liar, don't believe what's the khmer rouge said, vietnam and samdach Hun sen know very well about khmer rouge killing kampuchean people, from 1975-1979. vietnam comes to saved kampuchean brothers and sisters. living good good conditions now, don't believes khmer rouge. believes vietnam,kampuchea.
Of course we know Khmer rouge lied about Vietnam. I mean wouldn't you, if someone demolished your career from CEO to a toilet cleaner?
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