Monday, March 08, 2010

The Indian-Khmer contacts in Ho Chi Minh City

Dear Mr. Madhusree Chatterjee,
(e-mail: madhu.c@ians.in)

I am writing in regard to your article "South Indians were the ancient money bags in Vietnam's Ho Chi Minh City" in which you claimed that South Indians had contacts with the Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh City 2000 years ago. Your article, which you quoted Mr. Sheetesh Sharma's book about the Indian-Vietnamese relations, erroneously claimed that ties between India and Vietnam date back to more than 2,000 years when Hindu traders from the Bhagalpur region established the ancient Champa kingdom in central Vietnam. I would like to draw your attention to the following:

First, 2000 years ago, Vietnam and the Vietnamese have not made their presence in the location of today's Ho Chi Minh City. 2,000 years ago, they had inhabited the most northerly territories near present Hanoi City.

The regions described in the book, Ho Chi Minh City and the kingdom of Champa (central Vietnam), were inhabited by the Hindu population known as the Chams, who later had all converted to Islam. The areas where present Ho Chi Minh City is located was a Khmer territory 2000 years ago known as Prey Nokor. It was only annexed by the Vietnamese ruler in 1698.

I wish to set the record straight here. Mr. Sheetesh Sharma had made serious historical errors in his book as he failed to properly research the topic.

The areas of Ho Chi Minh City and below were Khmer territories 2000 years ago and were populated by the Khmer people. The areas were only annexed by the Vietnamese rulers in 1698, therefore the South Indian traders whom you were talking about had contacts with local Khmers, not the Vietnamese. Today, the region below Ho Chi Minh City, even still controlled by Vietnam, is known as Kampuchea Krom (lower Cambodia) and are still populated by millions of ethnic Khmers.

You had also erroneously claimed that the "Vietnamese adaptation" of Ramayana, 'Ms Sita', is woven around the lives of local prince Po Liem, a local version of king Rama and his wife Sita. The adaptation of the Ramayana you are talking about is not a Vietnamese adaptation. In fact it was a Cambodian version of the Ramayana known as Reamker and was performed by the Khmer Krom people, ethnic Khmer people who still inhabited the former Khmer territories known as Kampuchea Krom. The name Po Liem is a Khmer name and is a mispronunciation of Preah Ream (King Rama) and Demon Riep was actually Vay Riep, a Khmer name for Ravana, Sita is called Seda and Hanuman is still called Hanuman like the Indian version.

Lastly, you erroneously claimed that 'according to a Chinese version, Kaundinya, who came to Vietnam from India via Cambodia, married a local princess Nagi and founded the dynasty. It was true that Kaundinya, an Indian Brahmin, had sailed to the location near Oc Eo (O'Keo which means 'precious creek' in Khmer), an area in the Mekong Delta, but he did not "come to Vietnam from India via Cambodia". He actually came to Cambodia from India because 2000 years ago, Oc Eo and Ho Chi Minh City were Khmer territories. The story of Kaundinya's journey and his union with the Cambodian princess Nagi had been recorded in the Cambodian chronology and was adapted into an epic theatre like the Ramayana. Kaundinya is known as Hun Tien in Chinese and in Khmer as Preah Thorng. Nagi is known in Chinese as Liv Yi and in Khmer as Soma.

We, the Khmer people, would like to ask Mr. Sharma to review his book and rewrite it to reflect the historical accuracy by saying that "south Indian traders had contacts with Khmers 2,000 years ago", not with the Vietnamese people, because 2000 years ago the Vietnamese people had not inhabited the areas mentioned yet.

Yours sincerely,
Khmerization
--------------------------------------------
For your information, I include a short history of Ho Chi Minh City as published by Wikipedia below:

Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) was once known as Prey Nokor, an important Khmer seaport prior to annexation by the Vietnamese in the 17th century.

Early history

Hồ Chí Minh City began as a small fishing village known as Prey Nokor. The area that the city now occupies was originally swampland, and was inhabited by Khmer people for centuries before the arrival of the Vietnamese. It should be noted that in Khmer folklore southern Vietnam was given to the Vietnamese government as a dowry for the marriage of a Vietnamese princess to a Khmer prince in order to stop constant invasions and pillaging of Khmer villages.

Khmer Territory

Beginning in the early 17th century, colonization of the area by Vietnamese settlers gradually isolated the Khmer of the Mekong Delta from their brethren in Cambodia proper and resulted in their becoming a minority in the delta.

In 1623, King Chey Chettha II of Cambodia (1618—-1628) allowed Vietnamese refugees fleeing the Trịnh–Nguyễn civil war in Vietnam to settle in the area of Prey Nokor, and to set up a custom house at Prey Nokor. Increasing waves of Vietnamese settlers, which the Cambodian kingdom could not impede because it was weakened by war with Thailand, slowly Vietnamized the area. In time, Prey Nokor became known as Saigon.

Prey Nokor was the most important commercial seaport to the Khmers. The city’s name was changed by Vietnam to Sài Gòn and then Hồ Chí Minh City. The loss of the city prevented the Cambodians access to the South China Sea. Subsequently, the Khmers' access to the sea was now limited to the Gulf of Thailand. It began as a small fishing village known as Prey Nokor. The area that the city now occupies was originally swampland, and was inhabited by Khmer people for centuries before the arrival of the Vietnamese.

In 1698, Nguyễn Hữu Cảnh, a Vietnamese noble, was sent by the Nguyễn rulers of Huế by sea[9] to establish Vietnamese administrative structures in the area, thus detaching the area from Cambodia, which was not strong enough to intervene. He is often credited with the expansion of Saigon into a significant settlement.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank you Khmererization. It's just unbelievable how this stupid foreigner can just write thing like that. Speechless

Anonymous said...

Madhusree Chatterjee is Yuon paid to says that. Yuon buys anyone to say exactly what is yuon want them to say through radios, news, press.

Anonymous said...

I support you Khmerisation. Your site is very useful.

Anonymous said...

What do you expect from the Indian writer?.His brain has been fucked up by the Currie powder for so long.

Anonymous said...

ឥឡូវនេះ ខ្មែរហ៊ុនសែន ក៏ធ្វើដូចស្តេចជ័យជេដ្ឋាទី២ដែរ។

Anonymous said...

WRONG HISTORY!!! DO MA! JOY EUY!

Anonymous said...

Now, his credibility is severely damaged, and who wants to read what the idiot moron writes.

Also, now, I'm stay away from curry for a while until the idiot gets his facts straight.

Great job, Khmerization!

War is peace

Anonymous said...

That's for who say khmer will be know event under ah Youn Vietname choymaray!

Anonymous said...

I find Khmerization's approach somewhat confrontational and maybe unconstructive. The way you shed light into his errors were done i believe without tact, and could seriously affect how serious he will take your correction.

I suggest that when people write a reaction to historical correction, they should maintain a neutral tone so as their intended reader do not feel personally attacked, especially if the mistake were technical and unintentional.

Regards,
Mr. Sai

Anonymous said...

11:36Pm Don't be a baby, boy!

Anonymous said...

Khmerization,

Is it the French who signed off that 22 provinces of Prey Nokor to Vietnam during World War II? Not 1698. Youn just took it about 66 years ago.

Khmer should be careful with Youn because Youn will inform people in the world especially Google, Yahoo or other source to change the Khmer map to smaller land with their encroachment. Look at how Youn in the US can lobby every city to have their Vietnam language in all US government sectors.

For Mr. Sai,

Khmerization only wants to keep the record straight with the Indian author; I don't see any angry language toward the author. If the author misses lead the fact, we, Khmer, have the right to get piss off. You must be Hanoi agent if I'm not wrong.

Anonymous said...

most history writters are forigners they should study the country history first before they put something down on paper.

Anonymous said...

That Indian named Madushree is a Mad Holy cow!!! Holy cow shit!!

Anonymous said...

If they are writers, there is no technical or unintensional mistake. every words expressed with the intension to influence. All Khmer have the right to get angry and hit back. Thank you Khmerization.

Anonymous said...

12:44 AM,
you should really let go of that attitude that anyone who has a critical thinking mind is a Hanoi mind.

That is very insulting to Khmer people in general because what you are saying is that only Vietnamese or or Hanoi born people are capable of thinking out of the box or critically.

If you look at Mr. Sai's previous contributions to the post on KI, specifically comments regarding to Youn term usage and the Khmer language you will see that he is very much a Khmer person.

The Khmer kamporb mentality is detrimental to progress and productiveness.

What does kamporb mentality mean? it mean mob mentality. In the Hun Sen clan, everything Hun Sen is right. In the opposition clan, everything anybody say against Hun Sen is right. This is wrong.

I think Mr. Sai is one of Khmer who realises that for Khmer to unite, Khmer need to think for themselves and not listen to what politicians speak.

I am with him on that.

Anonymous said...

Democratic Kampuchea Pol Pot Khmer Rouge Regime

Members:
Pol Pot
Nuon Chea
Ieng Sary
Ta Mok
Khieu Samphan
Son Sen
Ieng Thearith
Kaing Kek Iev
Hun Sen
Chea Sim
Heng Samrin
Hor Namhong
Keat Chhon
Ouk Bunchhoeun
Sim Ka...

Committed:
Tortures
Brutality
Executions
Massacres
Mass Murder
Genocide
Atrocities
Crimes Against Humanity
Starvations
Slavery
Force Labour
Overwork to Death
Human Abuses
Persecution
Unlawful Detention


Cambodian People's Party Hun Sen Khmer Rouge Regime

Members:
Hun Sen
Chea Sim
Heng Samrin
Hor Namhong
Keat Chhon
Ouk Bunchhoeun
Sim Ka...

Committed:
Attempted Murders
Attempted Murder on Chea Vichea
Attempted Assassinations
Attempted Assassination on Sam Rainsy
Assassinations
Assassinated Journalists
Assassinated Political Opponents
Assassinated Leaders of the Free Trade Union
Assassinated over 80 members of Sam Rainsy Party.

"But as of today, over eighty members of my party have been assassinated. Countless others have been injured, arrested, jailed, or forced to go into hiding or into exile."
Sam Rainsy LIC 31 October 2009 - Cairo, Egypt
  
Executions
Executed over 100 members of FUNCINPEC Party
Murders
Murdered 3 Leaders of the Free Trade Union 
Murdered Chea Vichea
Murdered Ros Sovannareth
Murdered Hy Vuthy
Murdered Journalists
Murdered Khim Sambo
Murdered Khim Sambo's son 
Murdered members of Sam Rainsy Party.
Murdered activists of Sam Rainsy Party
Murdered Innocent Men
Murdered Innocent Women
Murdered Innocent Children
Killed Innocent Khmer Peoples.
Extrajudicial Execution
Grenade Attack
Terrorism
Drive by Shooting
Brutalities
Police Brutality Against Monks
Police Brutality Against Evictees
Tortures
Intimidations
Death Threats
Threatening
Human Abductions
Human Abuses
Human Rights Abuses
Human Trafficking
Drugs Trafficking
Under Age Child Sex
Corruptions
Bribery
Embezzlement
Treason
Border Encroachment, allow Vietnam to encroaching into Cambodia.
Signed away our territories to Vietnam; Koh Tral, almost half of our ocean territory oil field and others.  
Illegal Arrest
Illegal Mass Evictions
Illegal Land Grabbing
Illegal Firearms
Illegal Logging
Illegal Deforestation

Illegally use of remote detonation bomb on Sokha Helicopter, while Hok Lundy and other military officials were on board.

Lightning strike many airplanes, but did not fall from the sky.  Lightning strike out side of airplane and discharge electricity to ground. 
Source:  Lightning, Discovery Channel

Illegally Sold State Properties
Illegally Removed Parliamentary Immunity of Parliament Members
Plunder National Resources
Acid Attacks
Turn Cambodia into a Lawless Country.
Oppression
Injustice
Steal Votes
Bring Foreigners from Veitnam to vote in Cambodia for Cambodian People's Party.
Use Dead people's names to vote for Cambodian People's Party.
Disqualified potential Sam Rainsy Party's voters. 
Abuse the Court as a tools for CPP to send political opponents and journalists to jail.
Abuse of Power
Abuse the Laws
Abuse the National Election Committee
Abuse the National Assembly
Violate the Laws
Violate the Constitution
Violate the Paris Accords
Impunity
Persecution
Unlawful Detention
Death in custody.

Under the Cambodian People's Party Hun Sen Khmer Rouge Regime, no criminals that has been committed crimes against journalists, political opponents, leaders of the Free Trade Union, innocent men, women and children have ever been brought to justice.

Anonymous said...

2:31AM,

I still say you are a Hanoi stooge.
Fuck you !

Anonymous said...

When someone called yourself Mr.
Like MR Sai and trying to steered Khmers from the truth, we don't call you Mr! We call you Youn Viet Cong Spy, who is living in the free country and work for Comies.
The world is not stupid, for the Thieves keep your BULLSHITS coming!
Anyone got Myeat?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Sai

11:36 PM, I don't see any confrontational tone in Khmerization's letter here. He just pointed out the errors, quote historical facts and ask the writer to rectify the errors. Khmerization even attached a short history of Prey Nokor as a reference. So, his letter is based on historical facts rather than on angry and confrontational tone that you seem to suggest. If you think you can do better than Khmerization, I haven't seen your latter to Mr. Chatterjee yet. I'm agree with Khmerization here. His letter is full of historical facts, not based on emotional and nationalistic sentiments.

Anonymous said...

That’s the real massacre of history, of memory. Sound like yuons get expand yuon fuken enterprise of historical and political falsification to clean yuon crimes and atrocities, yuons just paid some of these dirt to do the dirty works for yuons as yuons formed and paid Khmer rouge (polpot or cpp) to massacre of Khmers

Anonymous said...

shame to this fuken yuon dirt

Anonymous said...

Lately there are fuken white skin experts who say the word yuon is racist, turned Khmer history up side down to protect yuons. Nnow there is a fuken indian who changed khmer history to yuon history. When while that last? These fuken ass are khmer rouge (= yuon creatures, yuon slaves, youn toilette papers, or yuon killing tools)

Don’t try to explain these criminals as they know shit thing of the fact, these people are just fuken ass yuon tools

Anonymous said...

What do mr Chatterjee,
feels if people wrote that its ass people born from yuon shit?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Sai, sakeur yey or soun yach ii?

Anonymous said...

While you are a died corps, vultures are around try to get a piece of muck

Anonymous said...

If theres one good thing I learn about yuon, its that they defend and die for their land.

They are very patriotic, Koh Tral aka Phu Quoc belongs to Kampuchea never forget that!

Anonymous said...

Seven Eleven do any thing for money. Khmer people better watch out. India is not better than Cambodia. They're worse than Bin Laden. Enyjoy that Dunkin Donut.
Hee Hee Oh, also gasolina.
Kunta Keeta

Anonymous said...

The history of SE Asia is so complex and turbulent, involving the rise and fall of many empires and population movements over thousands of years, so all sides are easily capable of making historical errors.

Kenneth So makes some valid points, but I would take issue with him when he writes:

"Kampuchea Krom did not fully become a Vietnamese state until 1954 after the French awarded the Khmer territory and granted independence to Vietnam."

As Kenneth himself writes one sentence earlier, Viet Nam actually took over Kampuchea Krom in the 17th century. Therefore Kampuchea Krom became effectively part of Viet Nam long before the French even arrived on the scene.

The Vietnam Cultural Profile website:

“....As early as 1623 the Nguyễn had married into the Khmer royal family, enabling them to establish a customs house at Prei Nokor (later Gia Định-Sài Gòn). Thereafter they brought increasing military pressure to bear on the Khmers, leading in 1749 to the cession of the lower Mekong Delta (Kampuchea Krom) to Việt Nam....”

Therefore, Viet Nam’s Nguyen lords had already consolidated their administrative control over Kampuchea Krom, well before the French even began their colonial conquest after 1858.

French colonialism set the borders of Indochina more or less as we know them today, accepting the existing status quo.

In order to “divide and conquer”, the French colonialists divided Viet Nam into 3 zones (north, centre and south) to try to break the strong spirit of Vietnamese national identity. One of these was the French southern colony of Cochin-China (Kampuchea Krom).

When Viet Nam declared its independence from France in 1945 (not 1954), it was always assumed that Cochin-China was an inseparable part of Viet Nam.

Therefore, the French did not "award" Kampuchea Krom to Viet Nam in 1954, (as stated by Kenneth), or any other time. Furthermore, in 1954 the French did not "award" or "grant" anything - they were humiliatingly defeated by the Viet Minh and ended their colonialism in all of Indochina.

Pol Pot later used racism and ultra-nationalism to reopen old sores in the relationship between Viet Nam & Cambodia for his own cynical political purposes, with disastrous results.

It would be a great tragedy if we allow the mistakes of the past to be repeated again now.

This is another historical lesson we need to learn, or never forget, for the sake of the future of the peoples of both countries.

I happen to think it is better to discuss all this calmly and rationally, rather than with irrational racist hatreds.

Bruce Mc Phie
http://lemonjuicebruce.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

REMEMBER THESE INDIAN MONKEYS WHO DEFACED THE ANCIENT KHMER WRITINGS ON THE WALLS OF ANKOR WAT BECAUSE THEY CLAIMED THEY WERE EXPERTS AT CONSERVATION ?

MC MACPHIE, YOU GOT IT RIGHT BUT YOU'D BETTER LECTURE TO THE YUON AS WELL BECAUSE THEY ARE MASTER OF FICTIONALSING HISTORY. THE YUON ALSO CLAIMED THAT THE KHMER AND YUON HAD BROTHERLY BLOOD LINKED TO THE DONG SON CULTURE THE DAY THEY SENT THEIR TROOPS TO INVADE CAMBODIA.

Anonymous said...

KI media, please publish Mr Macphee's comments and lets debate his view. I think he has not got it right fully yet. He sees the issue from the vietnamese eyes mainly.

Anonymous said...

For some critical discussion on the "invasion" of Cambodia, check the Cambodian links on my blog:
http://lemonjuicebruce.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

The Viet tried for 2 thousand years to shake off colonialism from China, France and America, but they never gave up their ambtition in imposing their colonialism on Cambodia and Laos. To these days the Viet still colonise Kampuchea Krom and main land Cambodia, lets alone Laos which is basically a Viet province now.

Mr Mcphie, since when has the viet worked for peace ? They suportedthe Khmer Rouge all the way until the latter refused the vietnamese hegemony that relation between the tow evil commies broke down.

I can sense that you were an ex-commy back in Melbourne, viewing thigs from Hanoi's eye. I know a few Aussies your type back then. Most of these ex-Aussie commies are now re-located to Hanoi or Phom Penh disguising as Hun Sen as advisors or tourist leaders, the like of Helen Jarvis, and her ardent commie hubby Allen Myers.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Mcphie knows nothing about khmer history. There is an adage that says "little knowledge is dangerous". Mr. Mcphie knows little to nothing about khmer empire in the 12th-17th century, his writing is not very convincing.

Anonymous said...

Why is this article significant of anything...pointless! who care!

Anonymous said...

No wonder Cambodians are still living in the stone age

Anonymous said...

1.13 PM, 1.14PM, YOU ARE SUCH AN IDIOT

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Hello all again,

If it seem to most that I am attacking Khmerization, I apologize and want to clarify my position. I did not write the comment because I believe I could write better then Khmerization. It simply my constructive suggestion. I am an aged person and like people my age, we tend to analyze tone and word choice very critically. I realize that this is not a point appreciated by most people today. Take for example, the term "you erroneously claimed", when repeated multiple time through the article it becomes rather an attacking tone than a neutral tone which Mr. Khmerization hoped to achieved.

My only concern is that good points may fall on deaf ears if we confront others without giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I do not believe I need to defend my point anymore, I believe Khmerization will understand my point and whether he/she may or may not appreciate my suggestion is up to them.


In regard to Lok or Neak Pros 3:21's comment. I am not steering Khmers from any truth. This is a baseless accusation yet to be demonstrated or quoted from any comments I had opportunity to write so far post on KI.

I am not a Hanoi or Youn stooge.
Lok 3:21 asked me if I got any myeat? May I ask back what is myeat? What kind of myeat would lead a man/woman to judge others or make false accusations? What kind of myeat would lead a person to curse others who have opposing opinions to their own?

I called myself Mr. Sai because I have self respect, and i do not want to participate in a nameless, anonymous, or be refered as "ah" AM/PM person.

My myeat is unquestionable. and my conscious is Khmer. Do not accuse me of Youn, or Thai, English, or a China man because you disagree with me. There are over 14 million Khmers, you are not guaranteed every soul will agree with you, so are all of us, the other 14 million foreign stooges?


Back to Khmerization, keep up good article. I did not write to come off as attacking you but rather as feedback, in any case I hope you find my comments as a useful feedback from one of your faithful readers.

Sincerey,
Sai

Anonymous said...

Sheetesh Sharma, you should stop your uneducating comment. if you want to comment something relate to history you should learn it first. the Youn is invader. if it still feeds their ambitious to swallow Khmer, remember one day all Khmer rise up against you all and you don't worry this is 2010 if Khmer done YOun done too.

Anonymous said...

2:51 pm don't worry, there are those who are narrow minded people. There is nothing wrong when you can share the knowledge, skills and concerns. Nevertheless, no need to response when someone is trying to attack you basically there is a mole in our website who tent to break us apart. But it also nice to know the truth because the only the truth will set us free.

Anonymous said...

the point is don't distort history.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Sai,

I still say you are a Hanoi stooge and low life bastard. May your soul rest in hell for eternity for supporting the evil yuon.