Cham ruins at My Son in present-day southern Vietnam - myson santuary |
“As each area was cleared and a village established, the soldiers of the don dien would move on to clear more land. This method contributed greatly to the success of Vietnam's southward expansion.”
Le Loi, one of Vietnam's most celebrated heroes, is
credited with rescuing the country from Ming domination in 1428. Born of a
wealthy landowning family, he served as a senior scholar-official until the
advent of the Ming, whom he refused to serve. After a decade of gathering a
resistance movement around him, Le Loi and his forces finally defeated the
Chinese army in 1428. Rather than putting to death the captured Chinese
soldiers and administrators, he magnanimously provided ships and supplies to
send them back to China. Le Loi then ascended the Vietnamese throne, taking the
reign name Le Thai To and establishing the Le dynasty (1428-1788).
The greatest of the Le dynasty rulers was Le Thanh Tong
(1460-97), who reorganized the administrative divisions of the country and
upgraded the civil service system. He ordered a census of people and
landholdings to be taken every six years, revised the tax system, and
commissioned the writing of a national history. During his reign he
accomplished the conquest of Champa in 1471, the suppression of Lao-led
insurrections in the western border area, and the continuation of diplomatic
relations with China through tribute missions established under Le Thai To. Le
Thanh Tong also ordered the formulation of the Hong Duc legal code, which was
based on Chinese law but included distinctly Vietnamese features, such as
recognition of the higher position of women in Vietnamese society than in
Chinese society. Under the new code, parental consent was not required for
marriage, and daughters were granted equal inheritance rights with sons. Le
Thanh Tong also initiated the construction and repair of granaries, dispatched
his troops to rebuild irrigation works following floods, and provided for
medical aid during epidemics. A noted writer and poet himself, he encouraged
and emphasized of the Confucian examination system.
A great period of southward expansion also began under Le
Thanh Tong. The don dien system of land
settlement, borrowed from the Chinese, was used extensively to occupy and
develop territory wrested from Champa. Under this system, military colonies
were established in which soldiers and landless peasants cleared a new area,
began rice production on the new land, established a village, and served as a
militia to defend it. After three years, the village was incorporated into the
Vietnamese administrative system, a communal village meeting house (dinh) was
built, and the workers were given an opportunity to share in the communal lands
given by the state to each village. The remainder of the land belonged to the
state. As each area was cleared and a village established, the soldiers of the
don dien would move on to clear more land. This method contributed greatly to
the success of Vietnam's southward expansion.
Although the Le rulers had ordered widespread land
distribution, many peasants remained landless, while the nobility, government
officials, and military leaders continued to acquire vast tracts. The final
conquest of Champa in 1471 eased the situation somewhat as peasants advanced
steadily southward along the coast into state-owned communal lands. However,
most of the new land was set aside for government officials and, although the
country grew wealthier, the social structure remained the same. Following the
decline of the Le dynasty, landlessness was a major factor leading to a
turbulent period during which the peasantry questioned the mandate of their
rulers.
In the Confucian world view, emperors were said to have the
"mandate of heaven" to rule their people, who, in turn, owed the
emperor total allegiance. Although his power was absolute, an emperor was
responsible for the prosperity of his people and the maintenance of justice and
order. An emperor who did not fulfil his Confucian responsibilities could, in
theory, lose his mandate. In practice, the Vietnamese people endured many poor
emperors, weak and strong. Counterbalancing the power of the emperor was the
power of the village, illustrated by the Vietnamese proverb, "The laws of
the emperor yield to the customs of the village." Village institutions
served both to restrain the power of the emperor and to provide a buffer
between central authority and the individual villager. Each village had its
council of notables, which was responsible for the obligations of the village
to the state. When the central government imposed levies for taxes, for corvee labour
for public projects, or for soldiers for defense, these levies were based on
the council of notables' report of the resources of the villages, which was
often underestimated to protect the village. Moreover, there was a division
between state and local responsibilities. The central government assumed
responsibility for military, judicial, and religious functions, while village
authorities oversaw the construction of public works projects such as roads,
dikes, and bridges, which were centrally planned. The autonomy of the villages,
however, contributed to the weakness of the Vietnamese political system. If the
ruling dynasty could no longer protect a village, the village would often opt
for the protection of political movements in opposition to the dynasty. These
movements, in turn, would have difficulty maintaining the allegiance of the
villages unless they were able both to provide security and to institutionalize
their political power. Although it insured the preservation of a sense of
national and cultural identity, the strength of the villages was a factor
contributing to the political instability of the society as it expanded
southward.
Source: US Library of Congress
58 comments:
The Vietnamese practice of Confucianism, like the Chinese, gave them an edge to surrounding Non-Confucianism countries. Yuon's powerful and diplomatic ruling class made the annexation of Champa and part of Khmer land inevitable during back in those days. It's a significant manifestation for a nation to not only survive but thrive along side of China for centuries. It is rather sad but very credible that there wouldn't be a Cambodia & Laos if it weren't for the Siam fighting Yuon for control of Khmer land, China's constant threat, Yuon elite's internal power struggle,and the intervention of France later. We have to give credit where credit is due, and learn a lesson or two from it.
I would look at the Cambodian problems of constantly losing land to her neighbours as a result of our Khmer division, greed, constant internal rivalry, and a rush to get help from foreigners at the expense of Cambodia rather than the Vietnamese practice of Confucianism being the key to allow them to have advantage over the Khmers.
The Thais have adopted many of the Khmer culture and way of life including Bhuddism and I have no doubt that they are strong enough to confront the Vietnamese very easily.
Confucianism had not made China strong enough even for the attacks of the Mongols.
The truth is Cambodians cannot work together as a team and the problem continues until the present day with no solution in sight. Even the CPP people are not together as one either, but a little smarter than the rest of the opposition groups!
Pissed off
You Can't be the judge when you are not smart enough to understand the thieves, the only way you can come up with is a whole nine yards short of excuses.
Some of the so call themselves the leaders even creates the excuses stories just to cover up of their stupidity.
@ Pissed off 3:07 AM: I never said, @ 2:31 AM, that Confucianism is a sure shot to achieve enough military supremacy alone to ensure successful conquests. However, Confucianism values (i.e. hard work/ sacrifice/ social & family responsibilities,etc.) builds a solid foundation and guidelines for social conducts & orders, in turn, creates innovation and economic & social structure that would lead to more (not all) productive citizens and leaders. The same reasons why Japan and Korea adopted Confucianism as well.
On one of your first note, The Mongols did successfully conquered China during one of its most depressed era, but quickly got absorbed by Chinese civilization & culture within years after that,and eventually faded back to the Gobi Plain, and look who are the most advanced Asian now.
On another point of yours, Thailand, throughout most (not all) of its history, was rarely a true match for the Yuon. Yuon, along with China possess gun powder early on while Thailand/Khmer and others did not acquire such power until later. Thailand has been lucky that Cambodia & Laos serve as buffers against the much less populated and divided Viet during the 15's/16's/17's centuries. The Saim have lost to Yuon numerous times in Khmer land, but because of the cultural similarity to us Khmers, we preferred and join them over Yuon during the wars (we were facing the dilema of Thai or Yuon). In recent history, right after VN taking control of Cambodia & Laos 1979, Siam had to frantically beg for, and luckily got, military support from U.S. to deal with Yuon's constantly harassment and raids Siam's border territories with excuses of hunting Khmer Rouge. Even now, everyone is talking about how Vietnam is on its path to surpass Thailand's relative economic success, and the already modernizing military of Yuon can only be counter by China and maybe, just maybe, Indonesia in SEA. I believe Khmers should pick up some lessons from them to use against them in some future time.
In all practicality (please forgive me for being just a bit impatient here), what can you gentlemen "Pissed Off" and/or anonymous @2:31:AM/7:55AM or anybody for that matter suggest to save/rescue Khmer at this stage of the Vietnamization of Cambodia?
Please be civilized. If one doesn't have anything civilized to say, do not say anything at all, ok please?
Can we have a gun stuck to Hun Sen and Sihamony's head for them to denounce the Viet at all at this point?
for your information, cambodia has nothing good to say about the viet/youn thugs; the viet/youn thugs are evil since the dark ages. as far as i'm concerned, they should go back to being a province of china, you know!
khmer leaders were so incompetent and not smart and clever, especially in the olden days going back a couple hundred years ago. it was partly ignorant and not using their brains. i don't blame the country of cambodia, i say it was the incompetent leadership that ran cambodia in the past was inexperienced, etc, you know.
So many Yuon Gook who are dumb and stupid killers on the planet.
Viet ia a expansionist but instead of blaming them, we should take a good look at our self, Khmer!
Have we done enough or nothing at all to stop the Viet? or at least slowing it down in stead of speeding it up?
All Khmer must have moral and know our obligation and understand the consequences of of our actions.
We must have pride for being who we are.
We must doing things to protect what we have.
Don't just criticize our enemies, learn from them!
Before Viet became a country, Chinese took Viet activist to China to be tortured and fed them drugs as punishment. A lot of them died but they kept fighting.
Today, Viet not only becomes a country...but a very powerful one.
Baay Kdaing
Baay kdaing, you sounded like someone i know. Where are you from?
Best,
Baay Khlouch
LONG LIVE VIET NAM and forever control the low life Cambodian forever. Not even China can help... We are strong and we killed the French and USA and we Killed many chinese and we can it agian .. LONG LIVE VIET NAM the master of Cambodia... and HUN SEN is our slave and the rest of Cambodia are all our slave..
I support you. Long Live Viet Nam. Cambodian leaders always like a slave and a dog always looking for someone to depend on. So now in Cambodia one dog have 2 owner the Viet Nam and the Chinese and we the Viet Nam will win and will rule the useless Cambodian peoples.
I support you. Long Live Viet Nam. Cambodian leaders always like a slave and a dog always looking for someone to depend on. So now in Cambodia one dog have 2 owner the Viet Nam and the Chinese and we the Viet Nam will win and will rule the useless Cambodian peoples.
Cambodia now have no new leader that can lead the country. All they have is Drunk, Pussy eater and party fuckers.. welcome to the peoples of slave. KINGDOM OF WONDER AND LOST.
i think during the time when vie/youn marched into khmer territories at that time, the reigning khmer king or royal family or whoever were the khmer ruler back then were very incompetent, maybe ignorant as well. those khmer rulers i think did not have good national strategy to fend off the illegal viet/youn entering khmer territories at their will. the viet/youn then were like opportunists, they did that because there were law, etc to stop them. maybe they were thinking it's free land for them or homestead land for them or something so they can just enter khmer territories at their will then. and of course, it didn't help for cambodia to put in power the incompetent, ineffective ruler then. i think cambodia could've use clever and smart strategies then to fend off the invading viet/youn into khmer territories of the mekong delta, koh tral island, etc... and i wouldn't doubt if the viet/youn then used their larger population to do that to khmer either. also, we have to look at the world at large as well then, there were no international law to governance the world states at that time either compare to this day and age, i.e., there were no UN nothing, so it was like a free for all. of course, viet/youn did take advantage of the incompetent, ineffective and ignorant khmer rulers of that era as well. and the royal family were fighting each other for power of the throne too, so it's all added up to the reduction of cambodia in land mass and open the door for viet/youn opportunists to invade and stake claims to khmer territoreis, khmer mekong delta region, khmer many islands, etc, etc, you see. and that was history.
it has to do with implementing a good national strategy for that kind of foreign invasions. khmer people, especially rulers need to wake up and smell the coffee and see the world, and stop disuniting and fighting among ourselves nonstop, ok. people like sam rainsy, etc is sort of like those incompetent, ineffective and perhaps ignorant type of khmer ruler or leader of that time. they never learn from history, i guess for they seem to continue to do just like that like fighting among themselves to benefit the youn, siem, etc. i say stop being stupid forever, ok, people, time to wake up and unite for the sake of longevity and prosperity and development of cambodia, ok! there are more to cambodia than you and i, ok!
and sometimes, too, extreme or taboo of beliefs contributed to national destruction. the people's beliefs are sometimes too primitive or outdated and did not contribute to national development and advancement of cambodia. so, it's time to adjust khmer people's primitive beliefs a bit so to be par with the rest of the developing countries out there, ok! it's ok to adjust our beliefs just a little for the sake of national advancement and development, etc, you know. don't stay too outdated like in a dark hole, etc, ok! learn to adapt, adopt, adjust and thinking outside of the box sometimes, ok. it will be beneficial to cambodia and our its development and advancement, if you ask me, ok!
We can see that from Bai Kdaing's comment all the way down to that of 12:21 AM, there is no solution suggested whatsoever except more theories and blames on Khmer, the victims. Is that it guys? You're so freaking good at it (sarcastic)
Bai Kork (បាយ កក)
every nation have their national heroes/heroines, etc. does cambodia have one since the khmer civilization of angkor? probably just one or two, that's about it. so, ask ourselves why that? fighting among ourselves, disunity, incompetent, ineffective, ignorance, greeds, evil, cruel, selfish, stupid, dumb, etc perhaps? and not using effective strategy to fend off invaders, etc, and even climate change, time change, etc all contributed to eithe advance or decline of our khmer nation. wake up, people! there are more to cambodia than you and i, ok! think smartly and cleverly from now on, stop being stupid forever, ok! get rid of that outdated or primitive thinking or beliefs of yours, ok! embrace modern, development, national reconstructions, national reforms, better national education, etc, etc, ok! be enlightened, wiser and smarter and be clever at it all, ok!
learn from the world history and civilization, cambodia, whether it's the western civilization or eastern civilizationor khmer civilization, learn from all of them so we can better our country of cambodia!
And what is this 12:33 AM babbling about?
And 12:36 AM? Are you aware that the Viet's yoke is upon Khmer's shoulder now? All you can suggest is "Learn from...." I'd say you're freaking good at it too
i know!
you know!
really!
ok!
etc!
And that is the best you can do to solve our country problem against the Viet expansion.
What are you writing for anyway? I don’t see any solution from you. Why do you beat around the bushes? Talk straight to point.
The Viet are lucky so far because Hun Sen and his cronies control Cambodia. They are so coward, dumb and stupid for being submissive to the Viet.
Instead of protecting the peasants’ lands along the border they have done the opposite by jailing the people who dare to protest the encroachments.
To solve our current situation we have to get rid of Hun Sen and his cronies first.
People know that Hun Sen is scared of the majority of the Khmer people and his surrounding; otherwise he would not have 5,000 bodyguards, paid for by the government, to protect him at all time.
Now going back to the question:
“Can we have a gun stuck to Hun Sen's head for him to denounce the Viet at all at this point?”
Yes, we can, but who are the people who are going to do it?
The answer is the very people who surround and protect him or his allies.
I believe there are enough CPP people who are fed up of being the Viet slave and they don’t want to see their children will live under the Viet like Khmer Krom do.
concurring with 12:45 AM/
OK 12:49AM, we may be on to something here, Thx.
key is put the right individuals in power in cambodia and stop putting incompetent, ineffective, or ignorant people in power in cambodia, ok! do it the right way with election, etc, no violence is allowed because it is so destructive and uncalled for, you know. just don't be stupid like the primitive KR regime that was lawless and killing its own people, ok! do it smartly, that's all it matters to cambodia, ok!
@ 8:36 AM: In response to your inquiry, first sticking a gun to Hun Sen won' help Cambodia because there is a line of twisted-mind Khmer politicians who are waiting to take Hun Sen's place and acts. Do we really believe that the entire nation and its people are falling behind the rest of the world because of one man, or even a few men, now and in the past. Is it really accidental that we have been historically picking one bad apple after another from what we believe to be a healthy fruitful tree, and somehow, by itself, our bad luck has ran out and the next one, and thereafter, will mostly be good apples. My friends, it's the soil that has been creating way many more bad apples than we like to admit. The soil is our culture, which despite of many positive attributions, carries numerous infectious bacteria that has left us ailing and falling behind powerful neighbors.
@ 8:36 AM: Sticking a gun to Hun Sen won' help Cambodia because there is a line of twisted-mind Khmer politicians who are waiting to take Hun Sen's place and acts. Do we really believe that the entire nation and its people are falling behind the rest of the world because of one man, or even a few men, now and in the past. Is it really accidental that we have been historically picking one bad apple after another from what we believe to be a healthy fruitful tree, and somehow, by itself, our bad luck has ran out and the next one, and thereafter, will mostly be good apples. My friends, it's the soil that has been creating way many more bad apples than we like to admit. The soil is our culture, which despite of many positive attributions, carries numerous infectious bacteria that has left us ailing and falling behind powerful neighbors.
1:00 AM
You said it yourself. Your rusty and outdated key will not work.
you know!
really!
ok!
etc!
The real key is your boss Hun Sen has to be out of the office even by means of the undemocratic way. But if he really loves his country he should step down and make a peaceful transfer of power so there won’t be any bloodshed, we have suffered enough.
You want to believe in bad luck all you like, but Cambodia’s bad lucks have been manmade.
Our last good chance was when UNTAC helped drafting the constitution for Cambodia.
And in it there was a term limit for the PM, but somehow Sihanouk rejected it.
Watch out !Ah-chor Yuon
youn was evil, that didn't justify anything to khmer, you know!
stupid to listen to that sihanouk old man! terms limit is best solution for cambodia in the future, after sihanouk leaves earth! of course, there are more to cambodia than sihanouk, sam rainy, etc, you know! stop being stupid forever, cambodia, wake up, ok! sihanouk is very old now and has dementia, so, stop letting him dictate to cambodia anymore, ok! there are many capable, competent, effective khmer candidates out there beside just sihanouk and so forth, really! think outside of the box for a change, ok!
2:04 AM
I dare you to find some faults and blame your boss, Hun Sen, a couple times for a change and let’s wait and see what happen. Will he cut your ball off?
1:05/1:06AM,
Powerful neigbors in this instance mean the Viets. Yes, they may be powerful and outnumber us Khmer. But at the same time they are agressor/invader of Cambodia and the current regime in Phnom Penh is their puppet/slave - The world is aware of it.
Why can we do something to get rid of the current leaders or get them to denounce the Viet's agression? There got to be somebody in Cambodia that want to no longer be the Viet slave.
Are we saying that the Viet is going to come and bluntly take over Cambodia with tanks and troops like they did to the Khmer Rouge Pol Pot, if the current leaders or any other leader can and will denounce the Viet agression in Cambodia? And the world is going to be just standing by and watch the 2nd Kiling Fieds performed/executed by the very same Viet???
Please do entertain it. Thx
Please help answer this question:
If Khmer denounces the Viet to the word, will the Viet comes to take over Cambodia by forces and there is nothing anybody or the World can do about it???
3:09 AM
As of now the Viet secretly have their guns up to Hun Sen and his cronies’ asses until they dare not talk against them any more. They would do us a favor by stepping down so that we would have a new set of leaders who politically dare to confront the Viet. The longer we wait the deeper we fall into the shithole.
3:23 AM
If the Khmer denounce the Viet to the word, will the Viet come to take over Cambodia by force? No, they will not.
The Cambodian govt never complaints about any wrong doing by the Viet, so what is there to denounce? The world might think that we are crazy.
The Champa kingdom wiped out
because of Vietnamese princesses;
This kingdom was born since 169AD,
and wiped in 15th century.
Cambodia lost Low Cambodia to Vietnam because of pussy princess
Vietnamese.She gave her to Ah Chey
Chetha II to lick.
Ah Sihanouk also is licking pussy
Monique Vietnamese queen and giving the whole Cambodia to
Vietnam.
Cambodia lost to Vietnam in January 7,1979 and up to now.
Now,Cambodia is a fake kingdom,
but the real one is a province of
Vietnam.
The Cham people wiped out his
country and people,so did the
Khmer.(1979AD)
The Vietnam is killing Khmer by it own hand and used Khmer to kill Khmer.
Cambodia is dead,along his people.
Go and see with your own eyes:
most community leaders are Vietnamese from the high officials to the bottom ones.
I believe in FAITH.
Le Loi was the man who pushed to expand the territory of Vietnam to survive from their historic enemy "China". Their policies are to destory their enemy within (causing civil war etc..).
Today Vietnam's military is among the world top 10. But it still does not guarantee that Vietnamese could survive while at the same time their enemy China is the richest and powerful.
It reminds me of the history of the Nebuchadrezzar II born in 631BC, king of Babylon who conquered the whole world back then, not only he defeated the great Pharaohs of Egypt he defeated all, he also burned down Jerusalem into the ground (ash).
Babylonians were richest and powerful on the planet earth, later then it falls on the night of October 5 or 6 in 539 BC by diverting of the waters of the Euphrates River created by their enemy. This similar strategy was used by the Vietnamese and they destroyed the whole Chinese army in the red River.
The history of men continues... and today China builds many DAMs for what purposes only China knows what she is planning to do to a small country like Vietnam.
Ps; Remember this that Vietnamese always learn and study about their enemy. They are not afraid to kill their own people to keep their nation alive. But how long can they run from China is in GOD's hands?
Only GOD knows because His noble design is not seen or known by us humans. Some of you can curse or challenge with GOD's works, I only weep and sorrow because I have feared of GOD that our days are numbered and will be soon doomed.
whatever, the question is how long they can last because nobody on earth can live forever, you know. they live in euphora of the moment, soon it wears out and everything will go back to the way it begins. nature is always the most powerful on earth, only time will tell. do good you will receive good, do bad, you will receive bad in return. let god be the judge on human beings. god bless cambodia.
cambodia, employ smart, wise, clever national strategies are keys to every situations in time, place, etc, ok. there are many strategies for every situations out there you can think of. learn do from everybody in the world, even learn from the animals and insects out there, ok. that's smart and clever. the important thing to always keep in mind is to maintain khmer language, writing, good culture and tradition, etc, and rid of the useless, bad ones that's detrimental and did not serve cambodia and khmer people well, ok! i don't care what, just be smart and clever and wise and enlightened about it, ok! there are more to cambodia than you and i, really. two wrongs don't make it right, just do something smarter and better than the last. teach other and stop being your own people again like that stupid KR regime, ok! that's all. and of course, develop cambodia, i hate primitive life style and primitive thinking, advance cambodia into a modern, develop country in every way, ok!
always maitain a strong khmer present and identity all the time in cambodia. strengthen and reforms khmer law to better serve our country is also key to success of future. do something different that will change and improve cambodia and khmer people's life is what legacy and heroes/heroines are all about, ok!
learn from history of chey chetta II era, never mix prostitution in politics. it's called being competent and ethical and professional, not abuse of your position or power, ok! stupid to keep going that path of destruction again. that's why in america, they have law against mixing of prostitution in political career, etc, you know. stop being stupid forever, ok! wake up already for a change, ok! resign if people continue to do that sort of thing in power!
i know!
you know!
really!
ok!
etc!
That's what the Khmer Krom are doing right now, dummy?
8:00 AM
That’s what the Khmer Krom are trying very hard to maintain right now, dummy?
country that expands usually have a vision into the future of what or how their country will be. does cambodia have any vision for the country? if not, why not, if yes, then we can understand and see how others are the way they are. think about it!
you can't have a vision into the future of a country if your country is primitive and not thinking outside of the box for a change, you know.
8:42 AM
You keep on saying the same shit. Are you inside some kind of a black box?
Do you need help to get out, so you don’t keep on saying the same annoying shit?
5:38 AM
I don't know what you meant by "euphora". I wrote "Euphrates River" in my post. We didn't have a world map to see/know how small or big the earth was. For sure, Southeast Asia nations and Japan, were not yet existed. Africa mainly Egypt in North Africa and Middle East region may be the oldest places before many times the earth was shifting.
When you said "God Bless Cambodia", you remind me of GOD spoke to His prophet to tell Kings of Israel and the people "they want me to Bless them but they worship false GOD. Should I not punish them?. Many disbelieve GOD's words through the prophet. Months and years later King of Babylon captured & recaptured Jerusalem, and burned down the whole city.
No one shall be rewarded without working hard.
Don't forget that China was very poor and in a big mess when the Chinese were fighting among themselves from one war to the next!
1:15 PM
Yeahh but now China is the richest and powerful. China can just walk into a tiny Vietnam, no places would be emptied because of 1.3 billion will sink Vietnam very fast.
2:21 PM
When 1.3 billion Chinese start to walk south toward Vietnam, the Vietnamese have to walk west into Cambodia and then what?
Don’t forget your history lesson, it was a domino effect.
By anger you want the Chinese to crush the Viet, but you have to look far into the final consequences.
Just like Sihanouk after the coup he just wanted his power back he never thought about the collateral damages that have cause Cambodia to this day.
Use your head and be careful what you wish for.
To 09:01 am,
Long Live a bullet through your head,
and your brain blown away !!!
Du Mae Maiy
To12:55am,
Before the Chinese march south,the then
new Government of Cambodia shall solicit
the Chinese government to deploy its
troops in Cambodia to sanwich the Viets.
Very soon, the under dog Viets will ask for
a cease fire, thereby we can dictate the
conditions.
You are funny 8:14 PM!
8:14 PM
Congratulation, I never thought about that.
Oh yes, that is what they call “a monkey strategy.”
to the poster at 7:50 PM and 8:14 PM (one person may be). I read your response to 09:01am 12:55am, but none of those posts exist.
Where are th eposts of 09:01am and 12:55am?
Either you copied their numbers wrong or you have a diabolical minds.
To the poster at 7:50 PM and 8:14 PM (one person may be). I read your response to 09:01am 12:55am, but none of those posts exist.
Where are the posts of 09:01am and 12:55am?
Either you copied their numbers wrong or you have a diabolical minds.
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