The following is part six of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/
Borin: If I'm not wrong you have said that the North Vietnamese has refused to provide weapons to the Communist Party of Cambodia because they need permission from the government of Gen. Lon Nol and Prince Sihanouk to transport their ammunitions through Cambodia. And the Khmer Rouge was able to get their weapons to wage wars through their militants working in military warehouses and who acted as agents.
Samphan: We got weapons through our guardian units who were secretly recruited by us but some of them have also joined the militant units as well. They also carry guns as well. And those people have the habits of borrowing guns to go hunting from the guards who were not the agents. And because our agents were the guards there as well they can go in and out as normal. So our agents, after they got the guns, they turned against the other guards by pointing the guns at them. They then allowed our people from outside to go in and take the weapons. That's how they were able to go inside the warehouses and took the weapons from there. That was the job of Ta Mok's boys from the Southwestern Region. And the units from the Southwestern Region under Ta Mok were able to steal more weapons than any other units. The other areas which got their weapons this way were in Rattanakiri and the Northeast Region. But they got less weapons because there were not much weapons to steal, only crossbows etc.
Borin: The strategy of stealing weapons at that time were carried out concurrently between all the regions or they were carried out at different times?
Samphan: The plan was to carry it out concurrently because of the experience in Vay Chap Mountain. The people there went to dig out weapons and fight against the government at different times which were not effective. So they did not want to do like that again. They wanted all the forces everywhere to fight at the same time so that Gen. Lon Nol's army would not be able to mobilise their forces to destroy us one by one. So when there were concurrent campaigns like that we were able to stand up to them and were able to seize more weapons from Lon Nol's army to wage a guerrilla warfare. But all the weapons that we were able to seize from them were really, realy old weapons because I was there. I have seen all those weapons when I was in Prey Thom (the Great Jungle) which was situated north of Route Four. All those weapons were from World War One's period. They were very old. We can only shoot one bullet at a time. The Khmer Rouge were very happy because those weapons were better than nothing. So since then Gen. Lon Nol's forces cannot go to crackdown in any village because the villagers will fight back and can even seize more weapons from them. That was the first war in 1968. That's what happened. At that time the Khmer Rouge began to train their forces. That was in 1968.
Borin: Mr. President, when you first joined the Khmer Rouge what was your role at that time?
Samphan: I did not have any function at that time. When I first arrived, like I told you before, they wanted me to hide quietly in Cheung Tong village for about four months in oder for me to get used to a jungle life but they provided coffee and so on because we still can buy cakes, lollies there as usual. If we need them just ask the people and they will go to buy them at Ang Ta Sorm. So after a short time there Ta Mok came to tell me that they have to move me to the other side. I cannot stay here anymore because the government might find out. They don't want me and Hou Youn arrested by the government and in oder to evade the authority I cannot stay in one place for too long. I have to move from one place to one place.
Borin: When you stay in each place, has Ta Mok ever taken you and Hou Youn to meet with the guerrilla fighters?
Samphan: No, because at that time they did not want anybody to know that we were living there. Even among themselves they don't even let anyone know that I was there. But as usual there were still someone who knew that we were living there. But their policy was not to let anyone know that we were there and as a result they never let us join their meetings. But in the village where I stayed they talked openly about politics. That's why latter on they called that village a "Sangkum Niyum" (socialist) village, the liberated village and so on. They used a lot of new capitalist and liberal vocabularies that we never thought that they can use in the rural and Khmer Rouge zone.
Borin: Can you give us an example of the words they used?
Samphan: For example, they talked about materialism, about history, about rice association, about medical association and they have talked about the kerose association etc. It was interesting so we both were trying to listen and to understand them as it gave us something to cheer about.
Borin: At that time were you aware of who were the most important leaders in the Communist Party of Cambodia?
Samphan: No, I didn't know because Ta Mok rarely come to see us. And when he came to see us he never talked about who were their the leaders or where they lived. He never told us anything like that. We both were too afraid to ask. Because they were waging a guerrilla warfare so they were very secretive. You only know about your business and anyone else's business you should not want to know. See nothing and hear nothing. That's their slogan. So I never wanted to ask them anything. That's their language, like when they talked about 'rice association'. I just knew later that it was a way of helping each other. So after the harvest those who have more rice can keep some and put some of their rice in the association in order to help those who do not have enough rice to feed their family, because if they borrow someone's rice they have to pay back double etc. So the rice that was allocated to the association were earmarked for lending to the people who are in need without charging any interest when they repaid back to the association. That's what they called the rice association.
As for the 'medical association' it means that when people bought the medicines they are not to make any profits when they resale them to the villagers. They are allowed to sell at the same price as when they bought them plus the costs of their journey to buy that medicines. The 'kerose association' is the same. They bought kerose in big containers, not in small containers. When they sold to the villagers they have to charge the same price as when they bought the kerose. They are not allowed to make any profits. I was so surprised because I did not think that they were able to organise all of these.
Borin: Now, I would like to touch on another issue in relation to the war in 1970. But because we run out of time I would like to end the interview right here and I would like to thank you so much.
Samphan: Thank you, Borin. and good-bye.
(To be continued....more of Khieu Samphan's interviews will be posted soon as this interview has not finished yet. After these six-part interview Khmerization will bring to you Khieu Samphan's biography which will be posted soon...).
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/
Borin: If I'm not wrong you have said that the North Vietnamese has refused to provide weapons to the Communist Party of Cambodia because they need permission from the government of Gen. Lon Nol and Prince Sihanouk to transport their ammunitions through Cambodia. And the Khmer Rouge was able to get their weapons to wage wars through their militants working in military warehouses and who acted as agents.
Samphan: We got weapons through our guardian units who were secretly recruited by us but some of them have also joined the militant units as well. They also carry guns as well. And those people have the habits of borrowing guns to go hunting from the guards who were not the agents. And because our agents were the guards there as well they can go in and out as normal. So our agents, after they got the guns, they turned against the other guards by pointing the guns at them. They then allowed our people from outside to go in and take the weapons. That's how they were able to go inside the warehouses and took the weapons from there. That was the job of Ta Mok's boys from the Southwestern Region. And the units from the Southwestern Region under Ta Mok were able to steal more weapons than any other units. The other areas which got their weapons this way were in Rattanakiri and the Northeast Region. But they got less weapons because there were not much weapons to steal, only crossbows etc.
Borin: The strategy of stealing weapons at that time were carried out concurrently between all the regions or they were carried out at different times?
Samphan: The plan was to carry it out concurrently because of the experience in Vay Chap Mountain. The people there went to dig out weapons and fight against the government at different times which were not effective. So they did not want to do like that again. They wanted all the forces everywhere to fight at the same time so that Gen. Lon Nol's army would not be able to mobilise their forces to destroy us one by one. So when there were concurrent campaigns like that we were able to stand up to them and were able to seize more weapons from Lon Nol's army to wage a guerrilla warfare. But all the weapons that we were able to seize from them were really, realy old weapons because I was there. I have seen all those weapons when I was in Prey Thom (the Great Jungle) which was situated north of Route Four. All those weapons were from World War One's period. They were very old. We can only shoot one bullet at a time. The Khmer Rouge were very happy because those weapons were better than nothing. So since then Gen. Lon Nol's forces cannot go to crackdown in any village because the villagers will fight back and can even seize more weapons from them. That was the first war in 1968. That's what happened. At that time the Khmer Rouge began to train their forces. That was in 1968.
Borin: Mr. President, when you first joined the Khmer Rouge what was your role at that time?
Samphan: I did not have any function at that time. When I first arrived, like I told you before, they wanted me to hide quietly in Cheung Tong village for about four months in oder for me to get used to a jungle life but they provided coffee and so on because we still can buy cakes, lollies there as usual. If we need them just ask the people and they will go to buy them at Ang Ta Sorm. So after a short time there Ta Mok came to tell me that they have to move me to the other side. I cannot stay here anymore because the government might find out. They don't want me and Hou Youn arrested by the government and in oder to evade the authority I cannot stay in one place for too long. I have to move from one place to one place.
Borin: When you stay in each place, has Ta Mok ever taken you and Hou Youn to meet with the guerrilla fighters?
Samphan: No, because at that time they did not want anybody to know that we were living there. Even among themselves they don't even let anyone know that I was there. But as usual there were still someone who knew that we were living there. But their policy was not to let anyone know that we were there and as a result they never let us join their meetings. But in the village where I stayed they talked openly about politics. That's why latter on they called that village a "Sangkum Niyum" (socialist) village, the liberated village and so on. They used a lot of new capitalist and liberal vocabularies that we never thought that they can use in the rural and Khmer Rouge zone.
Borin: Can you give us an example of the words they used?
Samphan: For example, they talked about materialism, about history, about rice association, about medical association and they have talked about the kerose association etc. It was interesting so we both were trying to listen and to understand them as it gave us something to cheer about.
Borin: At that time were you aware of who were the most important leaders in the Communist Party of Cambodia?
Samphan: No, I didn't know because Ta Mok rarely come to see us. And when he came to see us he never talked about who were their the leaders or where they lived. He never told us anything like that. We both were too afraid to ask. Because they were waging a guerrilla warfare so they were very secretive. You only know about your business and anyone else's business you should not want to know. See nothing and hear nothing. That's their slogan. So I never wanted to ask them anything. That's their language, like when they talked about 'rice association'. I just knew later that it was a way of helping each other. So after the harvest those who have more rice can keep some and put some of their rice in the association in order to help those who do not have enough rice to feed their family, because if they borrow someone's rice they have to pay back double etc. So the rice that was allocated to the association were earmarked for lending to the people who are in need without charging any interest when they repaid back to the association. That's what they called the rice association.
As for the 'medical association' it means that when people bought the medicines they are not to make any profits when they resale them to the villagers. They are allowed to sell at the same price as when they bought them plus the costs of their journey to buy that medicines. The 'kerose association' is the same. They bought kerose in big containers, not in small containers. When they sold to the villagers they have to charge the same price as when they bought the kerose. They are not allowed to make any profits. I was so surprised because I did not think that they were able to organise all of these.
Borin: Now, I would like to touch on another issue in relation to the war in 1970. But because we run out of time I would like to end the interview right here and I would like to thank you so much.
Samphan: Thank you, Borin. and good-bye.
(To be continued....more of Khieu Samphan's interviews will be posted soon as this interview has not finished yet. After these six-part interview Khmerization will bring to you Khieu Samphan's biography which will be posted soon...).
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