Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Four

File photo shows Khieu Samphan, then prime minister of the "Democtratic Kampuchea" arriving in Beijing, 19 August 1975, for a state visit in China. Samphan was arrested Monday by Cambodia's UN-backed genocide tribunal, a court spokesman said without elaborating on the charges.(AFP/File)

The following is part four of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: On this point, other than being one of the intellectuals, you were also one of the politicians who strongly supported Prince Sihanouk's policy of neutrality. When foreign troops came to station on our soil, what do you think about the government allowing them to station in our border areas or even stationing themselves in some parts of Cambodia's provinces?

Samphan: This is my view: right or wrong we can discuss about it further in order to use it to serve as a lesson for our history. And there are many issues which have to be debated and discussed in order for us to learn about our history.

Now, for this issue, this is how I understand it: At that time it was not only me who had this sort of view. This was how most of us understand about this issue at that time and that was we have to be practical. At that time we did not have enough forces to drive the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese out because the North Vietnamese forces have defeated the French forces in the Battle of Bien Dien Phu. On the other hand, our troops had never fought any war. We had no experience in fighting. So if we use military means to solve our problems on this issue, I was of the view that it was not the right way to solve that problem. If we wanted to solve the problem that way we must join with the American forces. But we could not even do that because the American forces were busy fighting their war too. So they will not be happy to help us. In my view, Prince Sihanouk's policy at that time was to contain and confine the war to the border areas and not to allow it to spill over deep inside Cambodia. But he could not do that because both sides had strong and powerful military forces. So when they fought each other they cannot avoid spilling the war into Cambodia. But we must contain the spills at the border areas and not to allow the fightings to be spilled deep inside our country. That's what happened. But if we attacked them they will surely fight back because they have nowhere to go to. And we could not fight them because we did not have enough troops.

Borin: Cambodia at that time knew that it had no forces to fight against the Viet Cong who stationed it's forces on our soil illegally. But according to the behaviour of our government at that time it seemed to be against America and therefore had turned a blind eye to the other forces using our soil to fight against America. This was the issue.

Samphan: Yes, if we look at the situation through this angle we can see the situation this way. But in my own personal view Vietnam should not create any problems with Cambodia anymore after that because Cambodia, during Prince Sihanouk's rule, helped Vietnam to a certain extent. And Cambodia, after the 1970's coup d'etat, that is to say during the Khmer Rouge regime, had helped Vietnam to a certain extent as well. This is the fact. So Vietnam should not cause any trouble for Cambodia. Like in 1967, 1968 Vietnam stopped respecting our borders which they had in the past agreed to respect. I hope to have an opportunity to discuss this issue with you later.

Borin: I would like to bring you back to your first 'open letter'. On point three, you said that you never knew any leaders of the Communist Party of Cambodia. You never liked or have never joined that party before. Why then when you got into trouble (in 1967) you seemed to be so sure that they will ensure your safety and security. How it turned out to be like that?

Samphan: You are right. But when I was threatened with arrests, as I told you before, the situation at that time was not the same as before that. The threats against me can't be taken for granted. My security in Phnom Penh cannot be assured anymore, so I must flee. That's the first point. But on the other hand, I saw that those who fled to the jungle before me, which I was not sure when, have followed my situation very closely. So they sent me and Hou Youn a letter because both of us were ordered to be arrested by military court because both of us were accused of being leftists. But Hou Youn and me were the main targets of the arrests. So at that time they sent a messenger, who was a respectable and credible old man, whom I knew when he was a member of the association of a senior citizens' group of the Sisowath College. And that association used to meet very often for dinner etc. in order to discuss about various issues. So we have touched on the issues concerning the current state of affairs of Cambodia at that time. And after that both Hou Youn and I knew that old man very well.

Borin: Mr. President, can you tell our listeners about the identity of the old man who handed the letter to you in that meeting?

Samphan: Yes. That old man was a doctor who had joined the senior citizens' association.

Borin: What was his name?

Samphan: Sorry, I can't remember his name because it was a long time ago.

Borin: I hope you can recall his name in our next interview.

Samphan: Yes, sure. The contents of the letter mentioned about the issues of the current political situation in Cambodia at that time. So I assumed that because the writer had deep understanding of the political situation at that time, I concluded that he must be a political activist. So he must be a person chosen by the people from the jungle base to be the messenger.

Borin: Did that letter have any signature on it?

Samphan: There was no signature because the situation at that time was dangerous so they have to be cautious. They could be arrested for doing that.

Borin: Can you assume who the letter writer was and who were the leaders of the movement at that time?

Samphan: At that time no one knew for sure. We just knew for a long time that there were people fleeing to the jungle. We only knew very sketchy about that. Those people have organised the movement there in their jungle base. So I have discussed with Hou Youn that we have no where to escape to other than taking a risk and flee to join those people in the jungle. At that point we realised that this old man must be genuine in helping us to escape if we were to survive. But to what degree he can help us we were not yet sure. So that's why we decided to flee to the jungle.

After we got that letter and because we had not escaped, the old man came to see us and asked why we hadn't escaped. Was it because we were too scared to flee?

It took us many days before we decided to go to the jungle. After we decided to go the old man came to fetch us in his car and drove us to Route Three. At dusk we reached a place just before Ang To Sorm. At that time there was a group of people waiting for us there. We got off the car and they gave each of us a bike. We rode the bike off the road and onto the dike one after the other in the middle of the rice fields by following the light of the stars. When we reached our destination, we noticed that delicate security arrangement was organised to facilitate our escape. They passed a message by whispering from one person to one person that we were one of them. That we were not a threat to them. So they let us go through. In fact we rode a bicycle for less than half an hour when we reached our jungle base. When we reached that village they asked us to go up a house. When I got up to the house the first person I saw was Ta Mok who sat quietly there.

Borin: Mr. President, I would like to clarify this point a little bit. Who was the first person you met?

Samphan: Ta Mok.

Borin: You mean our Ta Mok, the one who is presently being detained?

Samphan: Yes, yes, that's right. At that time he was in Kampong Speu. He was in charge there. In fact I never knew him before. And at that time I didn't even know who he was. They just introduced him to me as Ta Mok. At that time he was dressed in a black, short-sleeved shirt and a short. And the shirt has no button because I can see that his chest was full of hair.

Borin: What was the name of the village where you met Ta Mok for the first time?

Samphan: The name of the village was Cheung Tong village, Cheung Tong commune, Samrong Tong district and Kampong Speu province. At that time we sat cross-legged around a kerose lamp. In our first meeting it was very short. He just asked us where were we going and which way we came through etc. It was just a normal conversation. A short time later he invited the owner of the house to join us...

(To be continued in parts 5, 6...)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Five

The following is part five of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: What was the date and month when you first met Ta Mok?

Samphan: When I left Phnom Penh it was in 1967, April or something like that. I cannot remember the month but I remembered the year clearly.

Borin: Due to some records we knew that you and your former comrade Pol Pot, alias Saloth Sar, studied at Kampong Cham College together. This is the first point. And the other point is that both of you studied in France together. When you entrusted your security to the Khmer Rouge movement, did you know at that time that your former comrade Pol Pot was the leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Samphan: No, in fact I did not know clearly that he was the president of that party. But I knew Pol Pot, alias Saloth Sar, when we studied in Kampong Cham together. He was one grade ahead of me. Sencondly, he was older than me so we were not very close at that time. But I noticed that he was a sportsman, a soccer player. He was also a musician, a violin player. When there was a students' performance at the school he was the one who helped to organise it and he played the music for the performance. I never knew that the Saloth Sar I knew in Kampong Cham was in fact Pol Pot later on. When we left Kampong Chan he took a senior high school diploma exam before me. I can't remember whether he had passed the exam or failed. And I didn't know where he had gone to study after that. And when I went to study in France I never met him because when I went there he had already returned to Cambodia.

Borin: When you had returned back to Cambodia, did you know where Saloth Sar was working at that time?

Samphan: I knew that he was a teacher at Chamroeun Vichea College. But I never pay attention to what he was doing at that time because I was not interested. I just knew from some people that he worked there as a teacher.

Borin: When you sought refuge and protection from the Communist Party of Cambodia, when was the first time you met Saloth Sar?

Samphan: I only met Pol Pot after the coup d'etat in 1970.

Borin: Where did you meet him?

Samphan: I met him at Stung Chinit (Chinit River) along the border of Kampong Thom province and Kampong Cham, north of Phnom Trong, near the Kan Ven? Centre. So I met him only after the 1970 coup in his capacity as the leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia. I was very, very surprised because I never thought that the Saloth Sar I knew at Kampong Cham College can be this important.

Borin: Mr. President, I still can remember in your previous comments that before the 1970 war, there was a war between the authority of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum and the communist resistance. Is that true that the first war occurred in Samlaut?

Samphan: No, in fact the first conflict did not happen in Samlaut. Samlaut was a peasants' uprising who revolted against the authority who confiscated their lands. Now, after more studies we found out that it was the case. It was an instantaneous peasants uprising without any involvement from the Communist Party Cambodia or the Khmer Rouge leaders at all. But there were some Khmer Rouge leaders who lived there also took part in the uprising. But it was not orchestrated or organised by the Khmer Rouge movement. Pol Pot said later that he did not support that uprising because if there was an uprising like that the armed forces will use the excuse to destroy the movement. We knew that the Samlaut crackdown was so heavy-handed, violent and brutal. Too many peasants were killed, about one thousands of them. And the survivors managed to escape to Vay Chap Mountain. And Vay Chap Mountain was where the former anti-French resistance fighters and the Viet Minh fighters had hidden their weapons. Vay Chap Mountain now doesn't have much forest and jungle but at that time the areas along Route Six was a dense jungle. So when those peasants reached the Khmer Rouge base they were provided for and trained as fighters. And the Samlaut uprising has coined a term "hunt down the Khmer Rouge".

Borin: Who coined the phrase "hunt down the Khmer Rouge"?

Samphan: It was a slogan from the authority. It was from Lon Nol's authority to be precise, because at that time everyone knew that Gen. Lon Nol was very fiercely against the Vietnamese communist. So by being strongly anti-Vetnamese communist he was also fiercely against the Khmer Rouge. And at that time the term "Kher Rouge" had already been coined. At that time when there was an uprising they always blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. Even there was a students demonstration they blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. When there was a students demonstration in Siem Reap they blamed it on the Khmer Rouge. So the incident in that year was not yet a war. And the reasons that they used to accuse me of supporting the Samlaut Uprising was because I, Hou Youn and other intellectuals were leftist politicians. That's why there were arrest warrants to put us on trial in the military court.

The Samlaut Uprising was in fact not very significant but due to the brutal crackdown it was similar to the brutal crackdown carried by Suharto and Nasution against the communists in Indonesia. That's why there was a talk of the town among people living in Phnom Penh that in Cambodia there was also a "Suharto-Nasution" as well. That's was what happened. I cannot take for granted the accusation against me at that time. The Khmer Rouge from the resistance base have told me that if I did not escape I will face grave danger to my life. So they said that I must escape and they will help to facilitate my escape.

Borin: I remembered that you said that before the 1970 war there was a war before that, what was that war?

Samphan: After the crackdown in Samlaut there were crackdowns in other rural areas and in Phnom Penh as well. So the Khmer Rouge realised that if they don't have any weapons to resist and to fight back against Gen. Lon Nol's army they all will be massacred like those people who escaped to Vay Chap Mountain as well. So they decided to take up arms combining with their political struggle. That was their aims. They realised that they cannot continue their political struggle alone. They must combine armed struggle with political struggle. But at that time the Khmer Rouge had no weapons and began searching for backers. So they decided that they must look to the North Vietnamese. That was what I was told later because at that time I didn't know anything clearly.

And at that time the North Vietnamese refused to provide us with weapons. Even with one gun they refused to give us. But when they refused our request they have their own reasons because at that time they need to transport their weapons through Kampong Som port as all weapons from China have to go through Kampong Som port because the Ho Chi Minh Trail was heavily bombarded by the American planes. All forces travelling from North Vietnam were almost destroyed before they reached Cambodian territories. All the weapons transported by trucks were almost completely destroyed so the Ho Chi Minh Trail cannot be used since 1967. That's why they used the Kampong Som port to transport the weapons instead. When the ships arrived the trucks belonging to the Royal Cambodian Armed forces were waiting to transport them through Phnom Penh, with full military escort, to the eastern borders. The trucks often stopped by in Phnom Penh to pick up food supplies such as rice to give to the Vietnamese. So if the Vietnamese provide us with weapons they were afraid that His Majesty (Sihanouk) and the royal government, which was led by Gen. Lon Nol, would close their supply routes so they cannot give us the weapons. But on the side of the Khmer Rouge, who was persecuted and cracked down on everywhere, were very, very angry. That was the beginning of the disputes between the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese. So after that, where did the Communist Party of Cambodia get their weapons? They took them from the government military warehouses of Gen. Lon Nol. Lon Nol at that time was both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence and the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces as well. So the Khmer Rouge stole weapons from government military warehouses, like where I lived in Kampong Speu there were lots of weapons being stolen from the government in that areas. Our soldiers surrounded the warehouses and went in to take the weapons. Why we can take the weapons from there as there were people guarding the warehouses? We can do that because we have our agents there whom we recruited from peasant families to act as our secret agents. That's how we get our weapons because those secret agents were also carrying weapons as well...

(To be continued in part 6..)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Six

The following is part six of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: If I'm not wrong you have said that the North Vietnamese has refused to provide weapons to the Communist Party of Cambodia because they need permission from the government of Gen. Lon Nol and Prince Sihanouk to transport their ammunitions through Cambodia. And the Khmer Rouge was able to get their weapons to wage wars through their militants working in military warehouses and who acted as agents.

Samphan: We got weapons through our guardian units who were secretly recruited by us but some of them have also joined the militant units as well. They also carry guns as well. And those people have the habits of borrowing guns to go hunting from the guards who were not the agents. And because our agents were the guards there as well they can go in and out as normal. So our agents, after they got the guns, they turned against the other guards by pointing the guns at them. They then allowed our people from outside to go in and take the weapons. That's how they were able to go inside the warehouses and took the weapons from there. That was the job of Ta Mok's boys from the Southwestern Region. And the units from the Southwestern Region under Ta Mok were able to steal more weapons than any other units. The other areas which got their weapons this way were in Rattanakiri and the Northeast Region. But they got less weapons because there were not much weapons to steal, only crossbows etc.

Borin: The strategy of stealing weapons at that time were carried out concurrently between all the regions or they were carried out at different times?

Samphan: The plan was to carry it out concurrently because of the experience in Vay Chap Mountain. The people there went to dig out weapons and fight against the government at different times which were not effective. So they did not want to do like that again. They wanted all the forces everywhere to fight at the same time so that Gen. Lon Nol's army would not be able to mobilise their forces to destroy us one by one. So when there were concurrent campaigns like that we were able to stand up to them and were able to seize more weapons from Lon Nol's army to wage a guerrilla warfare. But all the weapons that we were able to seize from them were really, realy old weapons because I was there. I have seen all those weapons when I was in Prey Thom (the Great Jungle) which was situated north of Route Four. All those weapons were from World War One's period. They were very old. We can only shoot one bullet at a time. The Khmer Rouge were very happy because those weapons were better than nothing. So since then Gen. Lon Nol's forces cannot go to crackdown in any village because the villagers will fight back and can even seize more weapons from them. That was the first war in 1968. That's what happened. At that time the Khmer Rouge began to train their forces. That was in 1968.

Borin: Mr. President, when you first joined the Khmer Rouge what was your role at that time?

Samphan: I did not have any function at that time. When I first arrived, like I told you before, they wanted me to hide quietly in Cheung Tong village for about four months in oder for me to get used to a jungle life but they provided coffee and so on because we still can buy cakes, lollies there as usual. If we need them just ask the people and they will go to buy them at Ang Ta Sorm. So after a short time there Ta Mok came to tell me that they have to move me to the other side. I cannot stay here anymore because the government might find out. They don't want me and Hou Youn arrested by the government and in oder to evade the authority I cannot stay in one place for too long. I have to move from one place to one place.

Borin: When you stay in each place, has Ta Mok ever taken you and Hou Youn to meet with the guerrilla fighters?

Samphan: No, because at that time they did not want anybody to know that we were living there. Even among themselves they don't even let anyone know that I was there. But as usual there were still someone who knew that we were living there. But their policy was not to let anyone know that we were there and as a result they never let us join their meetings. But in the village where I stayed they talked openly about politics. That's why latter on they called that village a "Sangkum Niyum" (socialist) village, the liberated village and so on. They used a lot of new capitalist and liberal vocabularies that we never thought that they can use in the rural and Khmer Rouge zone.

Borin: Can you give us an example of the words they used?

Samphan: For example, they talked about materialism, about history, about rice association, about medical association and they have talked about the kerose association etc. It was interesting so we both were trying to listen and to understand them as it gave us something to cheer about.

Borin: At that time were you aware of who were the most important leaders in the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Samphan: No, I didn't know because Ta Mok rarely come to see us. And when he came to see us he never talked about who were their the leaders or where they lived. He never told us anything like that. We both were too afraid to ask. Because they were waging a guerrilla warfare so they were very secretive. You only know about your business and anyone else's business you should not want to know. See nothing and hear nothing. That's their slogan. So I never wanted to ask them anything. That's their language, like when they talked about 'rice association'. I just knew later that it was a way of helping each other. So after the harvest those who have more rice can keep some and put some of their rice in the association in order to help those who do not have enough rice to feed their family, because if they borrow someone's rice they have to pay back double etc. So the rice that was allocated to the association were earmarked for lending to the people who are in need without charging any interest when they repaid back to the association. That's what they called the rice association.

As for the 'medical association' it means that when people bought the medicines they are not to make any profits when they resale them to the villagers. They are allowed to sell at the same price as when they bought them plus the costs of their journey to buy that medicines. The 'kerose association' is the same. They bought kerose in big containers, not in small containers. When they sold to the villagers they have to charge the same price as when they bought the kerose. They are not allowed to make any profits. I was so surprised because I did not think that they were able to organise all of these.

Borin: Now, I would like to touch on another issue in relation to the war in 1970. But because we run out of time I would like to end the interview right here and I would like to thank you so much.

Samphan: Thank you, Borin. and good-bye.

(To be continued....more of Khieu Samphan's interviews will be posted soon as this interview has not finished yet. After these six-part interview Khmerization will bring to you Khieu Samphan's biography which will be posted soon...).

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The Reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Three

File photo shows Kieu Samphan, as prime minister of the "Democtratic Kampuchea" and Army Chief of staff, congratulating his troups in April 1976. Samphan was arrested Monday by Cambodia's UN-backed genocide tribunal, a court spokesman said without elaborating on the charges.(AFP/File)

The following is part three of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com

Sam Borin: Mr. President, on this point I would like to clarify something. In 1967 or even 1968, it was a period under the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime. You said that the authority persecuted the people. Were the authorities from the Sangkum Reastr Niyum or from somewhere else?

Samphan: Now we have seen clearly. At that time we cannot see anything clearly. During the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime there were people who came from many different political persuasions. Those who joined the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party came from many different parties such as the Democratic Party, the Neang Kunghing (Earth) Party etc. Those were people who came from different political parties to join the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party. Each one of them still have their old ideology that led to many schools of thought and different political leanings. And no one knew who beat me up at that time. Only later that people found out who they were. At that time there were rumours that those who beat me up were people who did not like me because they accused me of being a Khmer Rouge. They said that it was the cyclopusse (rickshaw) drivers and the ordinary people who hated me who carried out the attack on me. At that time no one knew that it was the police who carried out that attack. But at that time Kou Roun, who was minister of security, went around showing off the photo of an attack on me to everyone to make fun of me. So from then on people knew that it was the police who carried out that attack. From the beginning people never thought that the attack was the work of the police. They thought that it was the work of the cyclopusse who hated me. When Kou Roun got the photo of the attack he went around showing it off to everyone that's why everyone knew it was Kou Roun's police who attacked me. And later on, someone did the investigation and found out more about that. I never thought of reporting it to anyone because I was not one hundred per cent sure. Also I did not want to complicate the matter further. So I just continue to do my newspaper work as usual because I did not want any more trouble.

Borin: I would like to ask you, in your capacity as a member of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, what was the relationship between the party members and the party president at that time.

Samphan: As far as I can remember there was no relationship. And the Prince probably knew that those who attacked me were the people who did not like me, whom they accused of being a Khmer Rouge, because of what I wrote in my newspaper. And Mr. Kou Roun had one time called me into his office and questioned why someone like me who graduated with a doctorate did not apply for a job with the government? Why did I became an editor of my own newspaper? Is it because I was against the policy of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum?

I have to admit that when I studied in France I have observed that most people who had higher qualification had also become an editor of the newspaper after they graduated. It was a normal thing. And my decision to establish my own newspaper was because I wanted to lead a life as an intellectual who used to live with ordinary people. So I have heard a lot of diverging opinions from ordinary people. At that time there were two distinctive schools of thought. One side was so happy with the outcome of the Bandung Conference which could lead our country to prosperity because it envisaged a policy of neutrality- neither leaning toward America nor leaning toward the Soviet Union. Those people who supported that policy were the monks, ordinary people, the teachers and even the intellectuals who had just returned from study abroad. All of them would like Cambodia to follow this path. Even I myself supported that policy. This is the first point I wanted to make.

The second point is that I have noticed that in the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime there were people from sections of the armed forces who did not like Sihanouk's policy of neutrality because it could create a problem with America because they thought that we sided with the Resistance, especially the Vietnamese resistance. And these people thought that because we were not truly neutral, we would have angered America anyway. And as a result, we would always have problems with America.

So since then those kinds of people, such as military leaders, viewed that Cambodia always need American aid. Those sections of the people were not confined to the military alone but also business people as well. They all need American aid and they always complained about our policy of neutrality. So at that time we had two schools of thought.

Even intellectuals who went to study in France were divided on the issue of neutrality. One side supported the policy of neutrality which has been agreed at the Bandung Conference because they thought that it was the right path to take. They saw that a lot of countries from Africa also followed that path as they did not want to support either the American side or the socialist bloc.

Also at that time we had the Dap Chhuon Affairs when Dap Chhuon accepted arms cache from the South Vietnamese government. He also received 270 kilograms of gold from South Vietnam as well, in an attempt to stage a beakaway by cutting off the northwestern provinces from the central administration. The authority found out about the plan so they destroyed it before it was hatched. But the Cambodian authority thought that the problem might not end there. They had to do something to prevent another possible Dap Chhuon-style uprising. The authority assumed that a weapon cache from South Vietnam must be the work of America who had recruited people from Cambodia to oppose the path decided in Bandung which was neither the American path nor the socialist path.

On the other side of the intellectual circle, they thought that the only path to survival for Cambodia was to establish a republic. But one side of this camp argued that if Cambodia was to establish a republic, where could they get the support from? They must contemplate the American support in order to topple the monarchy and establish a republic. So we see that this issue posed a problem so they have to discuss about the pros and the cons. What will be the benefits and what will be the disadvantage?

So when I heard all those diverging opinions, I decided to establish my own newspaper to support that policy of neutrality in order to generate debate for the pros and the cons of both diverging views.

That was the reason why I established my own newspaper. And as a result I was accused of opposition to His Majesty (Sihanouk) just because I did not join his government. In fact I was never against him. My newspapers have been archived so if anyone wanted to know they can read them and will see whether I was against him or not. But at that time there were accusations that I was against His Majesty. That's why I was attacked by the secret police.

Borin: Mr. President, when you mentioned about the reason why you established your own newspaper was because of the diverging views at that time between supporters of the free world and the supporters of the socialist world. One reason amongst other reasons were that you saw that the policy of neutrality agreed in the Bandung Conference was not implemened properly in Cambodia because of the facts that Cambodia allowed foreign troops, especially the Vietnamese troops, to station on the neutral land of Cambodia. In your capacity as a member of parliament of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, how did you view that issue? And what view did you present to the party and the party president?

Samphan: According to my recollection we have debated this issue in the parliament on the one hand. And on the other hand we had privately discussed amongst ourselves in our capacity as members of parliament and in the intellectual circle. We came to the conclusion that, in fact, His Majesty (Sihanouk) did not allow those Vietnamese troops to station on our soil.

In the Vietnam war the Vietnamese resistance side had fought to unite their country. But they were met with resistance from America which supported the South Vietnamese administration. At that time, in comparison, the American side was militarily stronger. So the Vietnamese resistance fighters were forced to escape to hide themselves in the areas along our borders. And if we examined closely Prince Sihanouk knew that militarily we did not have enough troops to push them out. If we tried to push them out we would have more problems with them. So the Prince turned a blind eye and let them stay there. But he had his own way and that was he insisted those Vietnamese troops who were stationed on our soil must recognise the current borders of Cambodia.

He had not only asked the Vietnamese resistance side to respect our border. He had also demanded that the South Vietnamese, the American, the North Vietnamese sides and other countries around Cambodia to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cambodia in the context of the current border demarcations.

So if we talk about the reality and in fairness, we can see that Prince Sihanouk had never sold our land to the Vietnamese like some of our intellectuals had said. That's what happened.

(To be continued in parts 4, 5, 6...).

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part One

The following is part one of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January 2004 and was re-broadcast in November 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com

Sam Borin: (Introduction): Mr. Khieu Samphan was born on the 27th of July 1931 in Prey Veng province. He received a sholarship to study in France in 1958 and was awarded a doctorate in economics in 1959. Like most of Khmer students, he was inspired by groups of people who opposed a foreign colonial rule and who leaned toward Marxism-Leninism.

Khieu Samphan was elected to the Cambodian parliament twice, in 1962 and 1966. He served as a senior minister in the Sangkum Reastr Niyum reggime under the then Prince Norodom Sihanouk in his capacity as Secretary of Commerce from 1962 to the end of 1963. During his tenure as Secretary of Commerce he was considered as a clean public servant and a clean politician.

In 1967, fearing arrest and execution, he fled to the jungle to join the Communist Party of Cambodia under the leadership of Saloth Sar, alias Pol Pot, in the aim of toppling the feudal and the reactionary regimes, old and new. Khieu Samphan, who was an intellectual and was an important official, has played a vital role in attracting and recruiting other intellectuals, former public servants and Prince Sihanouk to join in the movement of national liberation. In April 1976 Comrade Khieu Samphan was appointed as the president of the presidium in place of Prince Sihanouk who resigned from the position. In his highest role in the Democratic Kampuchea regime Comrade Khieu Samphan played a vital role in his capacity as a spokesman for the KR regime.

He was a vice-president and deputy prime minister in a tripartite coalition government which included the Khmer Rouge, Prince Sihanouk and Son Sann factions which was formed in 1982. In that tripartite coalition, Khieu Samphan was responsible for foreign affairs.

In relation to the peace talks in Paris in 1991 he was the highest representative of the Khmer Rouge delegation. After the peace talks he became the member of the Supreme National Council of Cambodia, along with Comrade Son Sen.

After the Paris agreement, the KR faction did not participate in the UN-organised general election of 1993. He continued his struggle as a guerrilla leader until 1998 when he defected to the government and was allowed to live freely as an ordinary citizen.

Mr. President, were what I have just described represented the correct descriptions of your history?

Samphan: In general they were correct but there are some points that I would like to clarify.

Borin: Please go ahead.

Samphan: You have described that I have leaned toward the Marxist groups in order to join the anti-war movement when I was in France. I would like to clarify this. In fact, those who were against the wars when I arrived in France were not Marxists. At that time, the atmosphere was an atmosphere of anti-war sentiment against the war in Vietnam and the war in Algeria, because those wars were the most important wars which killed thousands of lives of young Frenchmen. They have destroyed the French economy. And at that time, we saw that the wars will be lost, especially the war in Vietnam. And when the French defeat in Bien Dien Phu was so apparent, the anti-war movements were raging all over the country. So the anti-war movements were not related to any Marxist leaning movements. They were just the student movements. They were not communist movements or any anti-communist movements. We were all anti-war people who had our common goals of protesting against a colonial rule, especially the war in Vietnam and the war in Algeria. Those anti-war people, included the French people, black Africans, north Africans such as the Morocans and the Arab people etc. That was the atmosphere at that ime. This is the first point that I would like to clarify.

Secondly, when I fled Phnom Penh there was an arrest warrant against me in an attempt to bring me to the military court, after the peasants' uprising in Samlaut. This threat against me was not the first threat. There were a series of threats before. At that time I have realised that His Majesty (Sihanouk), who was the head of state at that time, has tried to played a role of a reconciliator. Even though he did not like those intellectuals who had just returned from France, he wanted them to have their voices and to carry out their activities. But around 1966-1967 the election was held which resulted in the right-wing parliament. Lon Nol became prime minister. That was unusual because the position of prime minister at that time was usually appointed by His Majesty (Sihanouk) but this time the prime minister was appointed by the parliament. His Majesty did not object to the appointment because he respected the results of the election. Previously His Majesty personally appointed the prime iminster from the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party. But after he received too many criticisms about his direct appointments, he agreed to allow a parliament to choose a prime minister. So that's why there was a right-wing parliament. And all the researchers had also written like what I have just described.

Borin: Mr. President, when you said that it was a right-wing parliament, do you mean that it was the parliament formed by the Sangkum Reastr Niyum regime still?

Samphan: Yes, that was correct. At that time we were always under the Sangkum Reastr Niyum but all the researchers have called that parliament a right-wing parliament because they noticed that most of the Members of Parliament were leaning toward the policy of Gen. Lon Nol. And at that time there were groups of people in Phnom Penh who began to talk about a "Khmer Suharto-Nasution"..(referring to a coup d'etat staged by Suharto and Nasution in Indonesia in 1965).

(To be continued in parts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...)

Interview With Khieu Samphan: The reasons He Joined the Khmer Rouge - Part Two

The following is part two of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
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Sam Borin: Like we have agreed in our first interview, now once again I would like to invite you to the interview. Welcome to the interview, Mr. President.

Samphan: Thank you, Mr. Sam Borin.

Borin: Before, you have told me and our listeners that you are no longer the president of the presidium. You are now just an ordinary person.

Samphan: That's right.

Borin: I have thought to myself that for me to call you a president would make some people think that I have given too high an honour to a suspected criminal killer etc. But I wish to clarify that the reason I called you as Mr. President or Mr. ex-President in the interview is because I would like you to think back to the time when you were the leader of the Democratic Kampuchea regime. That's why I have used the word Mr. President to address you in our discussion. Do you have any objection to that?

Samphan: If you would like to bring my memories back to that period by calling me Mr. President I would not mind. But I also like to take this opportunity to say to people that at that time I was not the leader. I was a leader in name only.

Borin: I hope that all our listeners now understand the reason why I called Mr. Khieu Samphan Mr. President or Mr. ex-President. In fact Mr. Khieu Samphan himself did not object to me calling him Mr. President of the Presidium or simply just Mr. President. Is that OK with you?

Samphan: Yes, it's ok.

Borin: Mr. President, if I'm not wrong, in your previous answers in past interviews, especially in relation to you giving up political struggle, in particular your parliamentary struggle, you said that the threats against your security and safety did not just happen in 1967 alone. There were a series of threats to your security before then. Is that right?

Samphan: That's right.

Borin: When we come to this point I have always heard our old people talked about one incident when your were an editor of the L'Observateur newspaper, which many people considered it to be a left-wing newspaper. At that time there were claims that the secret police agents have on one occasion kicked your motorbike while you were riding on it. And after the motorbike crashed, they stopped and strip searched you. Can you describe how that incident happen?

Samphan: At that time when I published my own newspaper we did not have any advanced technology like now such as computers or printers ect. And most of my staff can't even speak or write French. They have to set up the French alphabets manually one by one in order to create a text article. When they create the article to print they can't even read it. They just put the alphabets one by one in order to form an article and then print it. So they made a lot of errors because no one can read and understand French. Only me who can read and understand French so I have to work with them from morning till afternoon. And after I finished my work I rode my motorbike home. I just left my office not far from the Chinese Hospital on the Norodom Sihanouk boulevard.....

Borin: Your newspaper office was near the Chinese Hospital?

Samphan: Yes, it was. And in front of the Chinese Hospital there was a school there but I forgot the name.

Borin: If I'm not wrong it could be the 18th March School which was later renamed Yukanthor High School.

Samphan: It was possible that that school was renamed the 18th March School after the 1970's coup. Yes, that's right. My newspaper was on the side of the Chinese Hospital. And on the opposite side there was a school.

Borin: Mr. President, did you remember what the reason why the secret police strip-searched you at that time?

Samphan: No, at that time I did not know the reason. First I thought that they were ordinary people because they were dressed in old civilian clothes like the cyclopusse (rickshaw) drivers. But when I think carefully I knew that they were not ordinary cyclopusse drivers. And later, because of the arrest warrants against me, I came to the conclusion that they were not just ordinary cyclopusse drivers. That incident was like this: they kicked my moving motorbike and when it crashed they arrested me and they tried to take off my clothes and I struggled with them very hard. But because there were too many of them they succeeded in stripping me off my clothes, in the middle of the street and in broad daylight. So I ran to a nearby house and the owner gave me a kramar ( a towel-type piece of cloth) to cover myself. That's what happened.

Borin: That incident was happened while you were a member of parliament or it happened before that?

Samphan: It happened before I became a member of parliament. At that time I was still an editor of my newspaper. I became a member of parliament after that incident. And when I closed my newspaper, and after discussing it with Mr. Sangyun, I applied for a membership of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party. He advised me that:"Samphan, don't publish your newspaper anymore. You must apply to become a member of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, stand in the election and I will help you become a member of parliament".

At that time His Majesty (Sihanouk) made great efforts to implement a policy of neutrality. But due to immense pressures from America and due to many other factors the Prince had made an effort to make friend with the socialist countries. Also at that time during the Bandung Conference of the non-aligned countries, the Prince had established a very good friendship with the Chinese Premier Chou Enlai because the Bandung Conference was an initiative of Nehru and Chou Enlai. And there were lots of Cambodia's friends at the conference.

Borin: For this point I will ask you later. But now I would like to return back to one point which I remember clearly and that is you were one of the ardent supporters of a policy of neutrality envisaged by Prince Sihanouk. When you fled to the jungle in 1967 it was during a period under Sihanouk's rule. I'm wondering that since you were a member of parliament of the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party, and the president of the party was also a head of state. Why did you flee to the jungle instead of explaining your case to the party's president? At that time what sorts of support did the party's president (Sihanouk) give to you?

Samphan: That event, occurred as I have told you before. It was due to the peasants' uprising in Samlaut. So the local authorities have launched a systematic persecutions similar to the persecutions carried out by Suharto against the Indonesian Communist Party. There were too many killings. That's why at that time people were whispering to each other around Phnom Penh that in Cambodia there was also a Suharto-Nasution clique as well...

(To be continued in parts 3, 4, 5, 6....).