Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Two

"Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us." - Nuon Chea

This is the second of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: How old were you when you worked at the government warehouse in Thailand?

Chea: I was about 18 years old. 18 years old was an eligible age to work in the public service.

Borin: Were you holding a Cambodia citizenship?

Chea: I was a Khmer citizen but at that time all natives of Battambang and Siem Reap provinces were allowed to take Thai citizenship. So I had all rights as the Thai people too. Even I was a Khmer citizen by birth but we were all allowed to take Thai citizenship. That was the Thai policy at the time but I noticed that Thailand at that time was not fully democratic yet.

Borin: At that time you worked in the Department of Foreign Affairs in charge of Indochina, including Burma too?

Chea: Yes. When I worked for sometimes I used to receive numerous reports about the French authorities maltreating old Khmer, Laotian and Vietnamese ladies. That caused me to be more anti-French. And co-incidentally the Issarak (independent) Movement was formed at Aranyaprathet town and some of the Issarak activists had fled to Thailand. But at that time the Issarak Movement did not have clear political goals. They were very, very corrupt, like Dap Chhuon and Mr. Hul etc. Have you heard of Hul Vong-Anupheap?

Borin: Yes, I have heard about him.

Chea: The Iassarak leaders such as Chau Pok, Achar Yi, Achar Yaing, Puth Chhay and Siv Thing were all fake Issarak leaders because they have maltreated the people and committed murders and robbery. So I became very disillusioned and asked for a permission to go to work in Thailand and they permitted me to go. At that time I had already joined the Thai Party. And by that time the Indochinese Communist Party had already been formed as well.

Borin: I wish to clarify one point. When you mentioned about the Thai Party, do you mean the Communist Party of Thailand?

Chea: Yest, that’s right. And because I was a Khmer citizen they allowed me to join their party without any obstacle. And through their Vietnamese counterparts they transferred my membership to the Indochinese Communist Party. So in 1950 I left Thailand and went to my old base in Pailin, Samlaut and Sre Andong etc. That experience made me understand more about everything. I waged my struggle from there from 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953 until the Geneva Agreement was signed to end the war in Indochina when the French troops were defeated in Bien Dien Phu.

After the Geneva Conference Vietnam was partitioned into two: The Communist North and South Vietnam which was still under the control of the French Protectorate and Emperor Bao Dai. And in Laos two provinces, Pung Sali and Sam-Noeur, were given autonomous status. In Cambodia there was no partition. All the Isaarak guerrilla fighters were allowed to re-integrate into the society. Their movements and territories were brought back under the central government.

So I decided to re-integrate back into the society but I cannot live in peace because the cruel Lon Nol and Kou Roun cliques and the cruel provincial authorities, especially the military, continued their persecutions against those whom they labelled as Viet Minh resistance fighters. The persecutions were so intense that we dared not stay at our homes. And in 1956 the election was held and the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party won the government. But after the election the persecutions still continue. So I decided to flee to the jungle and organised an armed resistance because at that time they have carried out indiscriminate persecutions against all former members of the Communist Party of Cambodia (CPC). As a result some members of the CPC have turned to gambling and drinking in order to evade and avoid detection. Some even turned into criminal activities. At that time there were not many members of the CPC left because all the Vietnamese resistance fighters have gone back to Vietnam and they have taken along with them about 1,600 Khmers. I knew this because at that time I was based along the Cambodian-Vietnamese border as I was unable to return back to Cambodia.

Later, when I returned back to Cambodia I was introduced to Saloth Sar (Pol Pot) because at that time Saloth Sar had just returned from France. He went to the Eastern Zone and it was there that we have secretly co-operated in our struggle until 1968 and after we were being systematically persecuted we decided to arm the population. At that time were not successful in arming the population because it was not the right time to arm them. And so we have asked our people to lie low. And when we decided to stop arming the population from 1968 onward, co-incidentally the 1970 coup d’etat had been staged successfully.

By that time we had some armed fighters already but after the coup we received a lot of defectors from the Lon Nol army who disapproved of the coup. But these soldiers such as the ones from the American-supported Mike Force were very cruel. These soldiers had tattoos on their hands and were not afraid to commit atrocities because they knew that they could die any time. At the time the Khmer Serei (Free Khmer) which was led by Son Ngoc Thanh was formed. We should forget about Son Ngoc Thanh’s movement. We need at least 3-5 days to discuss about this issue so I just summarise it here.

Borin: Yes, you can summarise it. When Saloth Sar established his base in the Eastern Zone, in which area and province where he set up his base?

Chea: In the border areas of Prey Veng and Svay Rieng provinces along the Vietnamese borders.

Borin: In fact, like you said, in order to discuss about this issue in details we need many, many days to talk. So in short, what you have said above were the main reasons which drove you to join a communist revolutionary movement. Is that right?

Chea: That’s right.

Borin: What did you see were the differences of the movement’s policies before it came to power and after it came to power?

Chea: Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us. But when we led the party to an armed victory against America in 1975 our party became very famous. The 1975 victory was a very beautiful victory. No other foreign countries helped us to victory. We won the war by ourselves, by the bravery of our Khmer people. This is the reason why I respected and admired the bravery of our fathers and mothers, our sons and daughters. Some families had given up their husbands and some families had given up seven to eight sons to become fighters against the Lon Nol army. Our country was a fantastic country at that time. That’s the reasons we had the issue with the events of the 3 years reign (Khmer Rouge rule). But no one bothered about the event of the previous 5 years when America incited Lon Nol, Sirik Matak and Son Ngoc Thanh to stage a coup d’etat. No one cared about how many people were killed when Lon Nol launched a coup to topple His Majesty (Sihanouk). There were demonstrations and protests everywhere and many demonstrators were killed such as in Spean Chroy A-Ork and in Kampong Cham. So, on this issue if we talk in details we need to write a lot. So I wish to end our conversation right here because I need to go to the temple right now…

(To be continued in parts 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)