Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Three

Nuon Chea and his grandson

This is the third of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: So you are saying that the victory of the Khmer Rouge movement was a victory of the people’s revolutionary struggle?

Chea: Yes, that’s right. It was the struggle of the people. It was not the Democratic Kampuchea alone who achieved the victory. Democratic Kampuchea was only a drop of water, I was only a drop of water in that victory. But the main forces were the farmers and the poor peasants who have united in their struggle to achieve that victory. And during that time His Majesty (Sihanouk) had also played a very important role too because he was the one who had appealed to the general population to go to the jungle to join the resistance fighters in fighting against the Lon Nol cliques. That was the most important mobilisation of the movement. So our resistance movement have grown very big and strong. At the grassroots level we have the farmers and peasants, the workers and the monks who had played a very important role. So the victory was achieved by a national movement headed by His Majesty (Sihanouk), not just the Democratic Kampuchea alone who achieved it. At that time we had a lot of intellectuals coming to join us but some of them cannot endure the jungle life and returned back the government side. That’s normal because life as the resistance fighters were not meant to be an easy life.

Borin: You have mentioned about His Majesty (Sihanouk). I wanted to know that when he was toppled in a coup d’etat he was overseas. Is that right?

Chea: He was overseas. He was travelling home via Russia.

Borin: I would like to know that when His Majesty joined the Democratic Kampuchea movement, did he joined by himself or was there any person who had convinced him to join?

Chea: From what I knew there were two reasons behind his decision to join the resistance. At that time Saloth Sar travelled to Hanoi. Another thing was that His Majesty was also a nationalist. Secondly, the Chinese and the Soviet Union had decided to support him. But the decision to join was his own. No one convinced him to join us. Everything depended on ourselves. Even if there was an outsider who try to convince us at the end it was left to ourselves.

Borin: It was true that it was his own decision but the Vietnamese, the Chinese and leaders such as Saloth Sar and so on, have they tried to make contact with him?

Chea: The Vietnamese and the Chinese have contacted him straight away. As far as I can remember Pham Van Dong went to see Chou Enlai in Peking (Beijing). He went to consult with His Majesty and told him that he has to join the struggle and become the head of the resistance movement. This history is very complex and most foreigners don‘t know about it. If we write a book it would be a very thick book.

Borin: I knew that you will have to go to the temple shortly, but I wish to ask you a few more questions in relation to the religion, especially Buddhism because from what you have said in the past and in your spiritual belief you seemed to be a very religious person. But the people have accused the Democratic Kampuchea regime of trying to destroy religion, especially Buddhism and our culture. How do you feel about those accusations?

Chea: They are right but they are also wrong to a certain extent because those who had joined the revolution did not understand about Buddhism. What is Buddhism and what is in Buddhism? They are Religious Materialism, Religious Selflessness, Religious Protocol and Religious Laws. We must combine religion with religious laws, knowledge and religious practices. We must not talk about religion, about religious protocol only. We can practise religion but that must be in comparable to the livelihood of the people. But what was most important was what’s inside our heart. That’s Nirvana. What is Nirvana? It is peace in our mind, the 4 precepts of Empathy, Compassion, the Middle Way and Forgiveness. I never see anybody practised these precepts. People only go to the temple just for the sake of going to the temple. So during our regime there were extremist elements inside our regime who have gone too far. Our society at that time has changed to become a communal society. It was a society where all the people, including the Buddhist monks, have to change their ways of thinking and their ways of life. That is not to say that we have legislated to ban people from becoming monks. At that time we have debated about this issue as well. We have come to the conclusion that we are at war so we must not worry about religion yet. We must be more concerned about farming first as agriculture is the basis of our religion. So we did not have time to think about religion because we were busy thinking about looking after the wounded people and about the medical care of the people because at that time we were fighting a big war. I do not believe that our communists wanted to destroy the religion but there were some extremist elements inside our party who reported to us that all the monks have left the monkhood voluntarily. I didn’t believe them but we had to allow things be like that so we can restore it in a reformed model. That’s what had happened. But please do not think that communists do not believe in religion.

What I said were the truths. During the war whenever the American planes bombed us heavily we always prayed to the spirit of our fathers and mothers. We always prayed and sprayed the earthly dusts on our head, we prayed to the Buddha, we prayed to the Dharma and we prayed to the monks for them to protect us. So we communists believe in religion too but in a different way. We were not like people from the previous regimes who just prayed in front of the Buddha statue but inside them was empty. I wish to re-iterate here against that god is inside us, the Dharma is inside us. We cannot just chant the prayer out loud but inside of us we did not have any spiritual connections.

A few days ago there were two monks from Prey Veng province who were accompanied by two priests who came around to collect their alms and to raise funds to build their temple. I asked them what is the meaning of Meakha Buchea (alms giving ceremony)? They cannot answer me. And I asked again what does the word Buddha means? Still they cannot answer me.

I said oh God! Our Buddhism will disappear soon. So I agreed with the words of the Buddha who uttered that “my religion will disappear because of the actions of my followers”. Nowadays, many Buddhists went to the temple because they wanted to pray to the Buddha to give the right lottery numbers, not because they wanted to rid themselves of greed, bad intentions and angers. And some Buddhist monks have behaved inappropriately such as performing love spells, giving the so-called sacred waters and providing lottery numbers etc. That’s religious misconduct.

We all have to consider about this issue together. What I see to day is that we have a motto of Nation, Religion and King. But why at the village level we didn’t practise the five precepts (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t drink, don’t commit adultery and don’t gamble). If we all practise these five precepts I think it will be very, very good. Today I see that some monks can’t even uphold the five precepts principle let alone the 270 precepts that they are required to uphold. So we have to understand all of these and when we understood all of these then we will realise that we cannot allow our religion to deteriorate anymore or we will be sinned.

Borin: I wish to go back to my question. In your capacity as the second in command of the Party and as a person who used to be a Buddhist monk. We saw that the reform of Buddhism under your regime was too extreme which has led to the destruction and ultimately the abolition of religion at that time. Do you agree with me that the Khmer Rouge regime had destroyed the Buddhist religion?

Chea: I do not agree with this assessment. We have reformed to rid of the old way in order to build a new way. We did not destroy it permanently. We only got rid of the bad elements in that religion and kept the good ones. Buddhism is not like Hinduism. What is the Buddhist Puritanism? What is Idealism in Buddhism? It is Nirvana. What is the principle of Nirvana? It is to rid yourselves of the bad deeds and do good deeds and have a pure mind. Everyday one has to know what are the causes of sufferings and find the ways to rid yourselves of all those sufferings by following the eight paths of the Buddha which I forgot what they are. But if we follow these paths it will lead to good things.

In our society in the past we believe in the four gifts of alms. But if there is no Buddhist virtues to support those gifts they will yield nothing. To achieve good deeds we don’t just consider about the four gifts alone but we must lead the people to achieve peace such as during the time of the god Ariyak Metrey. When it comes to god Ariyak Metrey all the people will just smile and become friendly toward each other when they saw god Ariyak Metrey because we all share the sufferings together, comfort together, become old together, get sick together and die together. So there is no reason to hate each other. Even I waged a war against the Americans and the Vietnamese but I never harboured any hatred against these people. I loved them very much. But I hated those aggressors who invaded other countries. So we have to differentiate these two kinds of people. The same with the Buddhist religion. I did not hate Buddhism but I don’t like those monks who do not follow the teachings of the Buddha. For example, some monks are wondering around asking and collecting donations in an anarchic way. If they still do like this our Buddhism will disappear.

Nowadays, not just the students who do not know how to show respect to the monks. Even our government officials don’t know how to show respect to the monks.

One day, a long time back, I went to the temple I saw one government official came to the temple. The monks asked him to chant a pray but he couldn’t do it. So even some government officials cannot even chant a prayer. So the people now practise Buddhism only as a lip service. We must practise Buddhism from our heart, from our flesh, from our blood and from our bones. If we can do like this our Buddhism will thrive.

(To be continued in parts 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Four

Nuon Chea making a speech during the Khmer Rouge regime era

This is the fourth of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: When the Khmer Rouge carried out the reforms, did many people agreed with the reforms?

Chea: I believe that there were some. But those people most of them were those who thought that “we have gone too far with the religious reforms”. See? That’s what they thought. I once met a foreign aristocrat, but I won’t say what his nationality is. He told me that a monk cannot lead the revolution (communism). I told him I disagree with his view. Any monks who adhere to Buddhism can lead a revolution better. It is true that the revolution (communism) and Buddhism has a slight difference from each other. They are not much different from each other regarding the principle of “violence” and the “ non-violence”. Buddhism favours spiritual reform and revolution/communism favours social reform.

They are not different from each other if we know how to combine the two. We must overcome our greed, bad intentions and angers first before we can overcome over other people. No any other victory is better than the victory over ourselves. If we still have bad intentions and angers and get drunk everyday, how can we lead? We have two, three, four or even five wives, hordes lots of money, cars and materialistic things etc. these are the things that we have to overcome ourselves with.

Borin: There were some people in some sections of the society, including myself, who believed that those Khmer Rouge leaders who used to be a Buddhist monks were the ones who killed more people than those who had never become a monk. What do think about this observation?

Chea: No, it is not true. Those people just say like that without any basis. I believe that we must balance. But sometimes we received pressures or influences from foreigners who do not believe in Buddhism because it is a complex religion. All religions, including Buddhism and Christianity, taught people to do good things. It is the people who commit bad things, not religions. We must understand about this point clearly.

Borin: But people have noticed that those who had spent life in the monastery are those who had become cruel killers than those who had never become a monk. Have you noticed like that?

Chea: No, it is not like that. I saw those people were like any other people but they always have compassion in them. Those who killed were mostly former thieves or ex-soldiers who were ruthless people. Before we have the “Red Soldiers” or the “Black Soldiers” who have become jungle robbers and killed each other mercilessly. When the Issarak Movements were formed they joined those movements and when the revolutionary movements were formed they came to joined us. Those people were so anarchic.

Borin: Were those people used to be monks?Chea: Some used to be monks. Some have never become monks and some became Buddhist monks only for a short period of time.

Borin: One point that I would like to raise is that Saloth Sar used to be a monk. And the other point is that he used to be an engineer in technical field. Is that so?

Chea: He was an electrical engineer.

Borin: He was an electrical engineer. People consider that those who studied this field were those who were not smart students, that’s my first point. The second point is people used to say that Saloth Sar was a bombastic person. Why did the People’s Revolutionary Party of Cambodia chose him to be the most important leader of the Democratic Kampuchea regime?

Chea: He used to tell me that he was a shy and a timid person who is scared to engage in arguments and fighting. He said that they always sent him to solve problems with difficult persons who had come to join our Party. He said that he was scared to deal with those people. He has a soft heart, not a “playboy” as portrayed by some people. But he was a disciplined person who become strict with himself or even with his family. That’s normal.

But he had never been a drunkard, a gambler or anything like that. He was a good person who has a very clean image. That’s why he had tried to build a good life for himself. He had told me that he decided to become a monk when his mother became sick. His mother asked him to clean her bottom when she became sick. So he thought to himself that may be his mother wanted him to pay back the gratitude and he did it willingly. When he came back he told me about this with tears rolling down his cheeks. So he was a very grateful person.

But he liked to say like this:” I hate feudalism more than colonialism because I do not like to bow (to the king)”. and he used to tell me that he was always scared of the Arabic guards. In the old days most guards such as the guards of the cinema, theatres and café etc., were Arabic people. As you can see Saloth Sar was a timid person who was concerned about other people’s feelings. So those people whom he cannot reform and educate he will let other people try to educate them instead. He was not a person who was always wanted to win or have his ways all the time but a person who has his reasons, who speaks with reasons.

Borin: So these are the reasons why many members of the Party love him?

Chea: Yes. He was a person who speaks with reasons and he was a polite person too.

Borin: Polite in what sense?

Chea:Polite in the sense that he was a person who compromised all the time, not a person who wanted his ways all the time.

Borin:I know that you need to go to the temple right now so thank you. I wanted to wish you good health and best wishes.

Chea: I have learnt a lot from you through your questions. If we have some one who ask us questions all the time it makes us think. But if no one to ask us anything we don’t think about anything. And when someone questioned us we will always have the reasons. And when we have time I would like to talk about the true nature of how the Communist Party of Cambodia was created. This is a core and key issue. I wish to tell you how was the Party led, how it had become strong and then weak. This is a very important issue. If you know about this point you know everything. You will see who was good and who was bad. I said this not because I wanted to bad-mouth my party but because I wanted to reveal it to serve as a lesson for the next generations to learn.

You know, even if after I died things cannot be changed. You know, time is short and I am not very healthy as well so I have to try to reveal as much as I can before I died. One more thing I wanted to tell you: I seemed to like you a lot. Some people who wanted to interview me but came with a bad intention so I refused to talk to them. I like people who are sincere. I don’t like deceitful people.

You can ask anything you wanted to ask. Some people pretended that they come from Radio Free Asia and just wanted to visit me. When I knew their real intentions I refused to grant them the interview. They have to tell me the truth so I can tell them exactly what they wanted to know. If we talk about the Buddhist teachings of Dharma we are talking about the truth. There should be no diplomatic talk but rather they can quiz me in a polite manner. Some journalists interviewed me like they are interrogating me but I ignored their questions. Just ask in a sincere manner, do not need to interrogate me and I will answer you in a truthful way. Take what you think is right and leave what you think is wrong for later days.

I tell you the truth. I don’t consider the court as an adjudicator. I consider it as a battleground between the (Cambodian) nationalist resistance fighters and the international community. So the upcoming Khmer Rouge Tribunal is a battleground between the Cambodian nationalists and the international community.

That’s why my morale now is very high. If there is no Khmer Rouge Tribunal the truth will never be revealed and people will vilify, defame and prejudge that the Khmer Rouge are cruel people who had committed genocide. So to tell you the truth I recognise this Tribunal but as a battleground, not only for myself but for all those patriots who had sacrificed their lives. So I wish you all the best.

(To be continued in parts 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Five

From right to left: Nuon Chea (second), Ieng Sary and Son Sen

This is the fifth of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: The other day you have owed me some answers. You mentioned that to understand everything I must understand about the political parties first.

Chea: I wanted to explain to you too because there are different kinds of political parties. Some parties were formed just to serve some individuals’ political ambitions and some parties were formed to serve the interests of the country. The Revolutionary Party of Cambodia was formed to serve the interests of the country because its aim was important. Anyone who joined it must be willing to sacrifice for the Party because this Party was not created for the purpose of fighting for power or any political interests but for the true interests of the nation. So I am very proud of this Party even though we have committed some mistakes because making mistakes are normal things for any leaders.

Borin: In your opinion what were the main reasons why mistakes were made by your Party?

Chea: I will tell you at a later time because it has its special characteristics. You must know about its special characteristics in order to know about its political platforms. I wanted the people to take those mistakes as a lesson for the future political aspirants to learn about past mistakes. But we have to talk face to face in order for us to debate the issue in a sincere and frank manner because Radio Free Asia is a very popular radio which, in the past, has broadcast very controversial programs about land disputes, about family disputes and about teachers’ disputes with the government. But as a politician I think that those disputes are normal things that we must face and solve everyday.

I have prepared myself that if one day I will see you face to face I will tell you about the birth of our party, about how it has transformed itself, about how it liberated itself from the influence of our neighbour. About its struggle, about how we Khmers was able to build ourselves, about whether this party was formed by itself or was it born out of other political parties. I can only tell you some aspects of it because all the party’s memberships came from different sources. Some came from France, some came from Thailand, some came from Indochina and some came from Vietnam combining together like we are making salad. I don’t want to compare ourselves to salad but that’s the real truth about the different influences brought to our party from different people.

So the agreements in policies are the problems because people from Europe were influenced by European ways of thinking, people from Asia were influenced by Asian ways of thinking and Vietnam has spread its influences to us as well. So past political unity and political agreements are a problem and very difficult to achieve. So all the leaders have to really compromise for the interests of solidarity and our nation. And the Communist Party of Cambodia was not a universal party. It was a true nationalist party but was not an internationalist or a universal party as was considered by some sections of the people.

We were an internationalist in the sense that we build up our party in order to contribute to the progress of the world. This is my view. We did not need an outside help. We can do things by ourselves so we must do it by ourselves in order to strengthen the quality and the capacity of our party.

This was the goal in the creation of our party and we have committed some mistakes. But why did we commit those mistakes? Because our party was a young party which has just been created not long ago. It’s true that it was formed in 1951 but it was not a pure party. It has only become a true independent party from 1960. So since 1960 it has become a true Khmer party which I really admired because it was not a satellite party to any other party anymore.

This is the reasons why I wanted to write about the party as a separate history. I can write it with accuracies because I can remember most of it. But I will write it as a national history. This is a very important issue. The party is a core. If it leads us toward the wrong directions we will face defeat. If it leads us toward the right directions we will achieve victory. The reasons the Chinese Communist Party and the Communist Party of Vietnam were strong because the Chinese Communist Party was formed since 1920 and the Communist Party of Vietnam was formed since 1930. And why did other big political parties like the Indonesian party collapse? This is what I wanted to experiment because other political parties, such as the Thai (Communist?) Party, the Burmese (Communist?) Party and the Philippines (Communist?) Party, have not thrived. And our Communist Party of Cambodia was different because it has just been formed for only 5 years but has defeated the Americans.

So if we wanted to know the truth we have to leave it to the next generations to judge us. We don’t want them to learn from us but we wanted them to judge us by themselves. This is my wish. So as you can see the Party is a core. So if the Party does not know how to lead us then we would face problems. But in the past we have tried hard to lead, both in the wrong and right directions, with compromise and with patience. Unlike the European political parties where they debate each other by banging the tables. We have made compromises by following the Buddha’s teachings of Dharma in order to build our nation.

I have to combine modernisation and Buddhism but I take Buddhism as a base. As for modernisation it will have to be done according to the situation. This is what I wanted to write a long time ago but I cannot do it by myself. I need someone to help me do this because I cannot remember everything that happened. Leading the party and the country since 1950 to present time is not an easy task. If we want the country to progress we have to make our population reform their ways of thinking in order to survive peacefully and prosperously. But I think that at the present time there are people who still have the ancient and the primitive ways of thinking.

So how can our nation progress? Even though we have not progressed materialistically, our thoughts and ideas must be progressive. Nature cannot be changed easily. We need 50 to 60 or even 100 years to change our ways of thinking. New thoughts and ideas help society to move forward because thoughts are the bases of modernisation and our intelligence is the master of everything. So I am still thinking whether to write a book or not because of my poor health and also my mind is not as active as before. What I have just told you are the truths. One day if you can endure the lifestyle I live you can come and stay at my house for one or two days, we have lunches and dinners together and we can start to discuss things. But you have to put up with us because our house has lots of cats and dogs and young kids. You are welcomed any time.

(To be continued in parts 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part One

Brother No. 2 (2nd from left) and Brother No. 1 (right)

This is the first of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Nuon Chea: Please ask whatever you want to know.

Sam Borin: In fact I have a lot of important questions to ask you. You have told me about the reasons of your actions because you believe that everything has its reasons and causes. I want to know the reasons why you joined the Communist Party of Cambodia. At that time what drove you to join the Communist Party of Cambodia?

Chea: I was born during the period in which Cambodia was under the French Protectorate. The French Protectorate was established in 1863 and I was born in 1926. I was born and raised during the French Protectorate and the feudal regime. That didn’t drive my nationalistic sentiment much but I hated injustices. I saw the rich oppressed the poor. The public servants oppressed the rural people. And I saw the district chiefs imposed heavy taxes on the poor. In short, the injustices have become a cancer which has spread to every level of our society. These were my main concerns. In fact I didn’t have much interest about Cambodia’s independence but I hated injustices. That’s what drove me to my struggle against the French.

The second reason was that one day I passed by a crematorium and saw a burnt and charred corpse. Immediately I felt so sad. And when I got home I told my grandmother that I wanted to become a Buddhist monk. But at that time I was still very young. My grandmother didn’t object to me becoming a monk but said that I should think carefully before I made my decision.

So at that time I had two choices. One was to opt for a political life in order to liberate my country. And second was to opt for a monastic life. But if I become a monk I will never leave the monastic life because I have always had true interests in the Buddha’s teachings since I was young. I always feel sympathetic toward old people. In short I have religious instinct. And what formed the first base of my conviction was the Cambodian nation and my Buddhist belief. So when the French ceded Battambang (his home province) to the Japanese occupation forces ( which meant that Battambang was effectively put under Thai control) I had to go to study in Thailand. When I was studying in Thailand, in the Buddhist era of 2485 (in about 1940-41), I saw that Thailand at that time was relatively free and democratic. But it was not totally democratic. I did see some injustices such as rich people oppressing the poor people etc. And that made me more concerned.

Before, I thought that Thailand was independent and a just society but I have seen that it was the same as Cambodia. So I decided to find people who have similar understandings as me. At that time I stayed at the temple and received advice from the Buddhist monks there. I have to attend a religious sermon once a week. If anyone missed the sermons 4 times he will be kicked out of the temple. So we lived a really disciplined life. And all the monks were highly educated and highly regarded. That made me more interested in Buddhism.

But in the Thai society, Buddhism and state affairs were intermingled. At that time I have not enrolled at the university yet. I was still studying at a high school. And when I finished high school I enrolled at Thamasat University. The professors there were highly qualified and they have always taught us how to love the people and to always serve the people. Most of the professors at the university held doctorate degrees and most of them came from France or Germany. And the rector of the university was Luang Pradit.

Laung Pradit was accused of being a communist when he tried to reform the political system of the country. He had to escape to France for a while. So as you can see there were some progressive people and there also were some non-progressive people who have always persecuted the progressive people. So up to that time I understood more about politics. And my nationalism was by then progressing a bit by bit. So as you can see I my nationalistic sentiment did not happen overnight.

At that time there was a Korean War. And at that time I had an opportunity to read communist books and newspapers such as the “People’s newspaper” etc. The “People’s newspaper” was a communist newspaper. The newspaper always informed its readers that the Communist Party had always helped the people to liberate their countries from foreign colonial rule. In that book there was a cartoon drawing which depicted Vietnam, Laos and Thailand planting the trees and liberating their countries together. And that made me more interested in politics because it was one of my options but my first and foremost option was always a monastic life.

Because of what I have seen I have decided to join the Youth Movement of the Thai Democratic Party. I was in charge of social affairs such as organising anti-dictatorship activities including organising meetings, printing and distributing pamphlets until I have grasped deep understanding of things. But at that time I had mixed emotions. At that time I was in love but my political emotions had taken over my love.

In fact, in the monk’s sermons he always advised us that when we see a girl we must not judge her by her look only. At that time all the girls I have seen were all beautiful to me but I never dare to do anything inappropriate to them. Besides I was poor as well.

When I graduated from the university it was during World War II. And during World War II the Japanese dropped bombs on Thailand. I saw that it was really unjust. At that time I have worked in many places because I passed all the exams. In Thailand I have no one whom I can look up to for help but I did pass all the exams by myself. First I worked in the government warehouse in charge of the accounts. After sometimes later I got bored with the work because every day I have to deal with numbers and figures all the time.

After that I applied to work in the Department of Foreign Affairs. I passed the exam and worked as a clerk with the lowest pay of 24 Baht per month. In the Department of Foreign Affairs I was assigned to work in a section responsible for the Indochinese Affairs which also covered Burma as well. In the Indochinese Section it covered Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam but also included Burma too. During my time in the Indochinese Section I have always received many reports about the French carrying out persecutions against the Laotian people and against the ethnic Chinese. There were reports from Pak San and Pakse that the French have even shot dead many old ladies who had just taken a bath in the rivers or lakes. And at that time the Issarak Movement was also formed at Aran town. Did you remember?

Borin: I didn’t know about that event because at that time I was too young.

Chea: That was in 1941-42, which was in the Buddhist era of 2486-87.

(To be continued in parts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)

Interview With Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge Regime - Part Two

"Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us." - Nuon Chea

This is the second of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.

Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/

Borin: How old were you when you worked at the government warehouse in Thailand?

Chea: I was about 18 years old. 18 years old was an eligible age to work in the public service.

Borin: Were you holding a Cambodia citizenship?

Chea: I was a Khmer citizen but at that time all natives of Battambang and Siem Reap provinces were allowed to take Thai citizenship. So I had all rights as the Thai people too. Even I was a Khmer citizen by birth but we were all allowed to take Thai citizenship. That was the Thai policy at the time but I noticed that Thailand at that time was not fully democratic yet.

Borin: At that time you worked in the Department of Foreign Affairs in charge of Indochina, including Burma too?

Chea: Yes. When I worked for sometimes I used to receive numerous reports about the French authorities maltreating old Khmer, Laotian and Vietnamese ladies. That caused me to be more anti-French. And co-incidentally the Issarak (independent) Movement was formed at Aranyaprathet town and some of the Issarak activists had fled to Thailand. But at that time the Issarak Movement did not have clear political goals. They were very, very corrupt, like Dap Chhuon and Mr. Hul etc. Have you heard of Hul Vong-Anupheap?

Borin: Yes, I have heard about him.

Chea: The Iassarak leaders such as Chau Pok, Achar Yi, Achar Yaing, Puth Chhay and Siv Thing were all fake Issarak leaders because they have maltreated the people and committed murders and robbery. So I became very disillusioned and asked for a permission to go to work in Thailand and they permitted me to go. At that time I had already joined the Thai Party. And by that time the Indochinese Communist Party had already been formed as well.

Borin: I wish to clarify one point. When you mentioned about the Thai Party, do you mean the Communist Party of Thailand?

Chea: Yest, that’s right. And because I was a Khmer citizen they allowed me to join their party without any obstacle. And through their Vietnamese counterparts they transferred my membership to the Indochinese Communist Party. So in 1950 I left Thailand and went to my old base in Pailin, Samlaut and Sre Andong etc. That experience made me understand more about everything. I waged my struggle from there from 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953 until the Geneva Agreement was signed to end the war in Indochina when the French troops were defeated in Bien Dien Phu.

After the Geneva Conference Vietnam was partitioned into two: The Communist North and South Vietnam which was still under the control of the French Protectorate and Emperor Bao Dai. And in Laos two provinces, Pung Sali and Sam-Noeur, were given autonomous status. In Cambodia there was no partition. All the Isaarak guerrilla fighters were allowed to re-integrate into the society. Their movements and territories were brought back under the central government.

So I decided to re-integrate back into the society but I cannot live in peace because the cruel Lon Nol and Kou Roun cliques and the cruel provincial authorities, especially the military, continued their persecutions against those whom they labelled as Viet Minh resistance fighters. The persecutions were so intense that we dared not stay at our homes. And in 1956 the election was held and the Sangkum Reastr Niyum Party won the government. But after the election the persecutions still continue. So I decided to flee to the jungle and organised an armed resistance because at that time they have carried out indiscriminate persecutions against all former members of the Communist Party of Cambodia (CPC). As a result some members of the CPC have turned to gambling and drinking in order to evade and avoid detection. Some even turned into criminal activities. At that time there were not many members of the CPC left because all the Vietnamese resistance fighters have gone back to Vietnam and they have taken along with them about 1,600 Khmers. I knew this because at that time I was based along the Cambodian-Vietnamese border as I was unable to return back to Cambodia.

Later, when I returned back to Cambodia I was introduced to Saloth Sar (Pol Pot) because at that time Saloth Sar had just returned from France. He went to the Eastern Zone and it was there that we have secretly co-operated in our struggle until 1968 and after we were being systematically persecuted we decided to arm the population. At that time were not successful in arming the population because it was not the right time to arm them. And so we have asked our people to lie low. And when we decided to stop arming the population from 1968 onward, co-incidentally the 1970 coup d’etat had been staged successfully.

By that time we had some armed fighters already but after the coup we received a lot of defectors from the Lon Nol army who disapproved of the coup. But these soldiers such as the ones from the American-supported Mike Force were very cruel. These soldiers had tattoos on their hands and were not afraid to commit atrocities because they knew that they could die any time. At the time the Khmer Serei (Free Khmer) which was led by Son Ngoc Thanh was formed. We should forget about Son Ngoc Thanh’s movement. We need at least 3-5 days to discuss about this issue so I just summarise it here.

Borin: Yes, you can summarise it. When Saloth Sar established his base in the Eastern Zone, in which area and province where he set up his base?

Chea: In the border areas of Prey Veng and Svay Rieng provinces along the Vietnamese borders.

Borin: In fact, like you said, in order to discuss about this issue in details we need many, many days to talk. So in short, what you have said above were the main reasons which drove you to join a communist revolutionary movement. Is that right?

Chea: That’s right.

Borin: What did you see were the differences of the movement’s policies before it came to power and after it came to power?

Chea: Before we came to power we were just a small party, a footnote to history only. No one knew us. Even some foreign countries didn’t know us. But when we led the party to an armed victory against America in 1975 our party became very famous. The 1975 victory was a very beautiful victory. No other foreign countries helped us to victory. We won the war by ourselves, by the bravery of our Khmer people. This is the reason why I respected and admired the bravery of our fathers and mothers, our sons and daughters. Some families had given up their husbands and some families had given up seven to eight sons to become fighters against the Lon Nol army. Our country was a fantastic country at that time. That’s the reasons we had the issue with the events of the 3 years reign (Khmer Rouge rule). But no one bothered about the event of the previous 5 years when America incited Lon Nol, Sirik Matak and Son Ngoc Thanh to stage a coup d’etat. No one cared about how many people were killed when Lon Nol launched a coup to topple His Majesty (Sihanouk). There were demonstrations and protests everywhere and many demonstrators were killed such as in Spean Chroy A-Ork and in Kampong Cham. So, on this issue if we talk in details we need to write a lot. So I wish to end our conversation right here because I need to go to the temple right now…

(To be continued in parts 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8..)