Wikileaks: 06HANOI461, STAFFDEL GROVE DISCUSSES BILATERAL RELATIONS [-Vietnam's concern over Hun Xen]

Hun Sen does not listen to Vietnam, Ba Hung

said, because Vietnam has no leverage. China, however, has

leverage - and thus Hun Sen's ear. Regardless, Vietnam will

continue to press Cambodia to act responsibly.

Reference ID: 06HANOI461

Created: 2006-02-27 09:21

Released: 2011-08-30 01:44

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

Origin: Embassy Hanoi

VZCZCXRO9518

RR RUEHCHI RUEHDT RUEHHM

DE RUEHHI #0461/01 0580921

ZNR UUUUU ZZH

R 270921Z FEB 06

FM AMEMBASSY HANOI

TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 0952

INFO RUEHHM/AMCONSUL HO CHI MINH CITY 0617

RUEHZS/ASEAN REGIONAL FORUM COLLECTIVE UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 HANOI 000461

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

SENSITIVE

STATE FOR H, G/TIP, INL/AAE, EAP/MLS, EAP/RSP

E.O. 12958: N/A

TAGS: OTRA PREL PHUM KIRF SNAR KWMN KCRM OMIG VM

CH, CA, BU

SUBJECT: STAFFDEL GROVE DISCUSSES BILATERAL RELATIONS,

CAMBODIA AND BURMA WITH MFA

HANOI 00000461 001.2 OF 004

¶1. (SBU) Summary: Senior MFA officials cautioned visiting

Senate Appropriations Committee Majority Clerk Paul Grove

that continued USG pressure on Burma and Cambodia will only

push those countries closer to China, and will not succeed

in convincing them to become more responsible international

actors. Vietnam is extremely appreciative of USG assistance

in combating HIV/AIDS and Avian Influenza, and believes that

the United States has an important role to play in the

region. Bilateral relations between the United States and

Vietnam are going well, but Vietnam's WTO entry is still

under negotiation and human rights/religious freedom will

remain a contentious issue. End Summary.

MFA AMERICAS DESK

-----------------

¶2. (SBU) Senate Appropriations Committee Clerk Paul Grove

met February 20 with MFA Americas Department Deputy Director

General Nguyen Ba Hung. Grove had been scheduled to meet

with DG and Assistant Minister Nguyen Duc Hung, but Hung

canceled at the last minute due to "urgent family business."

(Note: AFM Hung was also unable to attend the U.S.-Vietnam

Human Rights Dialogue and missed a reception at the

Ambassador's residence that evening. End Note.) Ba Hung

noted that the U.S.-Vietnam Human Rights Dialogue (septel)

was ongoing in the next room; Grove responded that the

issues of human rights and religious freedom are of great

importance to both the Executive and Legislative branches in

the United States.

¶3. (SBU) Ba Hung praised the strengthened relationship

between the United States and Vietnam in 2005, noting that

the highlight was Prime Minister Phan Van Khai's June 2005

visit to the United States. 2005 produced many agreements

between the Vietnam and the United States at the government

and business levels, and the task in 2006 is to implement

all of these agreements. The second task is to work to

bring Vietnam into the WTO, a goal Vietnam wants to achieve

this year. There is a great deal of work to do on Vietnam's

WTO entry, Ba Hung conceded, but signals from the United

States appear to Vietnam to be positive, and the GVN will

"try to respond positively" after the most recent round of

negotiations. Third, the GVN is preparing for the visit of

President Bush to Vietnam in the fall of 2006. Combined,

these tasks represent an intensive pace of relations, he

said.

¶4. (SBU) Vietnam does not, at the moment, see any major

obstacles to ongoing good relations, Ba Hung continued. The

ongoing Human Rights Dialogue demonstrates that both sides

have overcome the obstacles that might prevent such a

dialogue, and no other major political or economic issues

appear to be insurmountable. Of course some "working level

difficulties" still exist, he said.

¶5. (SBU) One of those working level difficulties is the

ongoing negotiation for Vietnam's entry into the WTO, Ba

Hung explained. There has been progress: "The U.S.

delegation told us that before the last round of talks, we

were 20 centimeters apart; after the talks we are only two

centimeters apart. We hope the next round brings us

together." The GVN needs to review the U.S. recommendations

and suggestions, and the U.S. side needs to examine the GVN

offer. These are technical differences, he said, that do

not rise to the title of "obstacle."

¶6. (SBU) In the realm of political issues, there remains a

great deal of work to be done on human rights and religious

freedom, Ba Hung said. "With some principled actions we

have taken together in the last year, such as the exchange

of letters on religious freedom between Vice Foreign

Minister Le Van Bang and Ambassador-at-Large for Religious

Freedom John Hanford, we have created guidelines and

principles for our joint work and cooperation to settle

differences on this matter," he continued. Since that

exchange of letters, Vietnam has done a lot, including

improving Vietnam's legal framework for religious belief,

creating better conditions for religious practice, and

making a concerted effort to meet the demands of the United

States regarding prisoners of concern. Of course, GVN

actions were based on a desire to improve conditions for

Vietnamese people and had nothing to do with pressure from

the United States or the EU; nonetheless, where possible,

GVN leadership attempts to take into account the concerns of

the international community and respond to those as much as

possible. The "as much as possible" construction means that

we will not be able to satisfy each other all the time, Ba

HANOI 00000461 002.2 OF 004

Hung added. "Our security concerns on the one hand and your

laws on the other will create a conflict," he said.

¶7. (SBU) Vietnam has shown its cooperation with the United

States on this issue in various ways, Ba Hung continued,

including visits and dialogues and even facilitating

meetings with "so-called dissidents" that the GVN would

really rather not see happen. The result of this, Vietnam

hopes, will be a USG determination to remove Vietnam from

the list of Countries of Particular Concern for religious

freedom.

¶8. (SBU) Grove noted that true security comes from the rule

of law, and said that, in the eyes of the State/Foreign

Operations Subcommittee, Vietnam's way of thinking on this

subject is coming closer to the United States' way of

thinking. Threats, where they exist, are often

transnational, such as drugs, HIV/AIDS and avian influenza

(AI). This is why the United States assists Vietnam,

particularly in HIV and AI prevention. Ba Hung responded

that Vietnam greatly appreciates U.S. assistance in these

areas and is aware that it has to work very hard to ensure

that the assistance is used properly. U.S. AI and HIV/AIDS

assistance represents one of the largest projects the GVN

has with any country, so the Ministry of Health (MOH) is

under significant pressure to do a good job. The GVN is

aware that President Bush will want to see how these funds

are being spent, and so MOH needs to strengthen its efforts.

¶9. (SBU) AI and HIV/AIDS are threats to Vietnam's

socioeconomic and national security, Grove continued.

Vietnam faces other real challenges as well that come from

its neighbors' actions, such as drugs and trafficking in

persons (TIP), that cross borders. Ba Hung agreed, noting

that the long, difficult-to-police border with Cambodia is

the site of significant trafficking in women in children as

well as drugs. Vietnam has made a strong effort to control

TIP, but it still exists and is still a major problem.

Grove said that the USG knows that Vietnam understands the

dangers of drugs, HIV/AIDS, AI, TIP and other transnational

threats, but the challenge is how to make less responsible

regional states such as Cambodia and Burma understand the

dangers as well. Burma is a major source point for these

transnational threats, he observed. How can Vietnam engage

with Burma to address them?

¶10. (SBU) Ba Hung said that Vietnam addressed these issues

with Cambodia in the context of annual interagency

discussions held during leadership visits. Lately, the

focus has been on TIP, drugs and the rising problem of

gasoline and oil smuggling. Another problem is the issue of

ethnic minority migrants from the Central Highlands

illegally crossing the border into Cambodia. Vietnam has

been unable to stop this. Burma is a different story.

Vietnam has "good, not great" relations with Burma and has

posted some successes in working with Rangoon on fighting

drugs. It remains a challenge, though, with some denial of

real political problems by the Burmese government.

¶11. (SBU) Grove said he hopes our areas of bilateral

cooperation can be increased and expanded. He added that he

hopes that Vietnam will be able to play an active and

constructive role in the region, and encourage positive

developments within ASEAN and other regional organizations.

Vietnam should be outward-looking and more involved with its

neighbors, and that means more than simple cooperation;

pressure and influence are crucial. Drug trafficking in

Cambodia, for example, is treated as a trivial criminal

offense, with traffickers receiving little more than a slap

on the wrist. Ba Hung said that Vietnam's leaders try to

persuade Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen to be more

effective in the fight against transnational threats.

Vietnam enforces drug laws vigorously, and executes "many"

drug dealers each year. In Cambodia, it is easy for them to

escape prosecution. Vietnam's enforcement is much better,

but it is difficult to persuade Hun Sen to follow the same

path. Alluding to China, Ba Hung said "it is difficult to

get Cambodia to cooperate with us because they listen to

someone else." The Cambodians are interested in give-and-

take, and suggestions accompanied by either the offer of

assistance or the threat to cut off assistance are more

effective than discussions based solely on goodwill and

friendship. Hun Sen does not listen to Vietnam, Ba Hung

said, because Vietnam has no leverage. China, however, has

leverage - and thus Hun Sen's ear. Regardless, Vietnam will

continue to press Cambodia to act responsibly.

HANOI 00000461 003.2 OF 004

MFA SOUTHEAST ASIA DEPARTMENT

-----------------------------

¶12. (SBU) Later the same day, Grove met with MFA Director

General and Assistant Minister for Southeast Asia Do Ngoc

Son. Grove said he is interested in Vietnam's regional role

and concerned about Vietnam's vulnerability to transnational

threats originating in other, less responsible, Southeast

Asian countries. DG Son said that dealing with Southeast

Asia is a high priority in Vietnamese foreign policy, and

noted that no country can address transnational threats

alone. Vietnam greatly appreciates U.S. assistance on

HIV/AIDS and AI, because it provides Vietnam a "strong hand"

to combat these threats. Drugs are another major concern,

and a strong reason why Vietnam is working so closely with

other countries in the region through the ASEAN drug

committee and the six-party MOU on drug control. Vietnam

has a long border that is difficult to patrol, and so is

very vulnerable to drug trafficking, DG Son said. The GVN

appreciates U.S. anti-drug assistance and funding and would

like more.

¶13. (SBU) Grove said that money is not the only issue;

political will needs to be present for there to be a

reasonable return on investment for assistance. Vietnam is

clearly serious about finding solutions to the problems of

HIV/AIDS and AI, but the same cannot be said of Cambodia and

Burma. How can the region convince these governments to do

better on the issues that affect all the states in Southeast

Asia, Grove asked. Their negligence affects everyone. DG

Son responded that he questioned whether the infrastructures

in both countries are sufficient to cope with the

challenges, and noted that they are very poor countries with

significant needs for technical, material and human

resources. Vietnam is trying to build up its relations with

Cambodia by increasing the frequency of bilateral meetings

at the leadership level and at the local and provincial

levels. The success of this effort is clear already. The

recently concluded border agreement and an arrangement to

allow Cambodian citizens to use Vietnamese education and

health infrastructure in border areas are examples, he said.

¶14. (SBU) Grove noted the problem with corruption in

Cambodia, which exists throughout the public and private

sectors. The level of corruption has reached such

proportions that it is impacting international aid, which is

an essential part of Cambodia's operating budget. The only

country that is increasing assistance to Cambodia in the

face of this corruption is China, which increases China's

influence in Cambodia. DG Son agreed that, in Cambodia, aid

is not respected in some sectors, and therefore assistance

is not well implemented. The United States should keep in

mind that Cambodia's leaders are interested in the

development of the country for the benefit of the Cambodian

people, and to that end they are developing relations with

whatever countries can help them, which means China.

China's emergence means that it has increased influence and

presence in Southeast Asia. Vietnam cannot, and does not

want to, stop this. The challenge is how to respond to it.

In Cambodia, China is in the position to increase its

diplomatic efforts, increase its assistance, increase its

tempo of official visits, and thus increase its influence

there. Meanwhile, Vietnam is just trying to be a good

neighbor and not interfere.

¶15. (SBU) Grove suggested that Hun Sen's gravitation towards

the Chinese is calculated; DG Son agreed that it is, and

that it is designed to generate more foreign aid for

Cambodia. He cautioned that, if the United States continues

to harp on human rights, HIV/AIDS and corruption in

Cambodia, it will be forced to withdraw from Cambodia the

way it has with Burma, thus abdicating all influence to

China. Grove acknowledged that Hun Sen is a complex and

complicated leader, and that the United States cannot walk

away from Cambodia without allowing China to fill the

vacuum.

¶16. (SBU) Grove said that Burma represents an even more

difficult problem for Vietnam and the ASEAN region because

of the "storm cloud" of drugs that gathers over Burma and

then spreads to other countries. The United States hopes

Vietnam will help find a solution to the political situation

in Burma that allows these transnational problems to fester.

Grove said that the United States understands that Vietnam

regards the situation in Burma as an internal affair, but

noted that the problems that Burma exports harm Vietnamese

citizens and Vietnamese children.

HANOI 00000461 004.2 OF 004

¶17. (SBU) DG Son said that ASEAN is in the process of

gathering information on Burma, while respecting the

principle of non-interference in internal affairs of member

states. ASEAN acknowledges the negative effects on member

states of the situation in Burma. The long embargo and

strong sanctions of the international community and the

United States have driven Burma into the arms of the

Chinese. When Khin Nyunt was in the government, more was

possible, but now that Than Shwe has taken total control,

things are more uncertain. It is possible that the United

States and the EU are demanding too much from Burma and

asking the government to change too fast. The leadership is

military, trying to protect itself and survive. ASEAN's

strategy is to engage them, which is why Burma was admitted

to ASEAN, and as a result they agreed to the road map.

Engagement at such a high level may be too radical for the

United States DG Son said, but it is the right direction:

give them time, encourage them and engage them. Pressure

and isolation will not change the regime in Burma, it will

simply deprive the USG of the opportunity to discover what

and how they are thinking. The USG is blocking them from

speaking, and simultaneously building a wall between itself

and the people and leaders of Burma. That means that,

instead of a dialogue, the USG is talking to a wall. And

for the Burmese generals, DG Son concluded, the only way

around that wall is north.

¶18. (SBU) Grove said the SPDC is its own worst enemy and is

unwilling to talk. Grove had wanted to visit Burma on this

trip, but was not allowed to go. DG Son suggested that this

is probably the result of strong USG measures against Burma.

The United States should reduce and soften its actions

against Burma and see what the reaction is to that. For

Asians, "a soft voice is easier to listen to than shouting."

The United States has an important role to play in the

region and can help a lot. The more the United States

assists and takes part in the economic development of poor

states in the region, the better. In particular, DG Son

said, Laos and Cambodia need assistance. "Don't talk about

human rights with them," he counseled. "A country that

needs health, food, humanitarian and development assistance

is concerned with its stomach, not its human rights." DG

Son suggested a "2 + 1" formulation for the delivery of

foreign assistance to the region, which could entail the

United States and Vietnam partnering to provide aid to a

third country. Like Vietnam's relationship with the United

States, as economic development occurs with other states in

Southeast Asia, engagement on more issues of importance to

the United States will be possible.

¶19. (U) Mr. Grove has cleared this message.

MARINE